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Old 11-04-2009, 10:07 PM
 
433 posts, read 235,630 times
Reputation: 45

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Doer View Post
Another cut and paste Obamabot. This is like an invasion of aliens.

I'm sorry I have done research about what I speak of. Does that bother you? Does it bother you that I have info to support what I say? Would it be better if I just randomly said stuff without any information to support it?


Yes 2 people who disagree with you must be classified as an invasion.


But yes you are correct it is utterly impossible for an individual to find ALL THIS INFORMATION. Unless you have oh maybe 15 minutes to search for information. If you are educated at all you would be able to do research without that much trouble.

So I ask you to kindly provide your information, real information. Information that shows the insurance companies are not making tons of profit, providing less payouts. Please show me some reason why you all believe that big business is thee way to go because after all they have done so much good for America so far haven't they? Like keeping jobs here.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:42 AM
 
38 posts, read 115,909 times
Reputation: 35
Some grist for the mill for the "taxes are too high" crowd. In the aftermath of the great depression until Kennedy was ellected, the highest federal income tax rate was 90%. During that time period, from approximately 1948-1964, the gap between the rich and poor in America was at its lowest.






Kennedy managed to lower the highest rate to 70% in '64. The business world hailed the decision. Since that time, the highest rate of income tax has consistently fallen. As that rate fell, the gap between the rich and poor widened. I'll try to attach that graph below.

Sorry, couldn't post the one graph I was able to find but it essentially shows that as the highest rate of income tax falls, wage disparity increases. Wage disparity prior to our latest "crash" was almost identical to wage disparity immediately prior to the great depression. Since 1964, the income gap has grown progressively. The power and profitability of our largest corporations has also grown hand in hand with that increase in income disparity.

Draw your own conclusions.

Last edited by mtn_viking; 11-05-2009 at 12:59 AM..
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Brendansport, Sagitta IV
7,925 posts, read 13,833,408 times
Reputation: 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by organick View Post
So you are against benefits for workers???? Are you against labor unions??

Plus your argument does not make sense. "Spent directly by those affected" cancer treatment costs 100's of thousands of dollars??
Yes, I am against labor unions. There was a time when they were necessary, but now they serve mainly to enrich union bosses and to influence Congress. Unions have probably cost more jobs over the past 40 years than all other factors combined. Take a look at America's rust belt, where unions, faced with the reality of cheaper labor overseas, chose to cling to their maxed out pay scales rather than adjust to compete with the global labor market.

Also, thanks for not reading what I wrote. Health insurance used to be only for catastrophic events, like accidents, heart attacks, and cancer, and was relatively affordable. AND you could find a family doctor who cost you all of $20 per visit. Now you pay $500/month, and for what? Most of us will never have a catastrophic event, but we do occasionally want to see a family doctor. Tell me how $500/month is more affordable than $20 on an as-needed basis??

Not to mention that in some areas, the independent family doctor is extinct. If you don't have insurance, there is NO ONE to go to, other than a federally funded hospital's emergency room. Long wait while exposed to many sick people (in some areas that means illegals with a high rate of TB).

Here's something I've been watching since its inception: pet health insurance. Only about 1% of pets are insured. However, since pet insurance began dictating billing practices, veterinary charges have skyrocketed -- they are now on average 10 times higher than they were just 10 years ago (wildly in excess of inflation or of actual cost increases to the vet clinics). Why??

Used to be your bill would be:

SPAY, $60

Now it reads like this:

surgery, 15 minutes at $200/hour, $50
anaesthesia, 15 minutes at $200/hour, $50
pre-anaesthesia, $20
autoclave supplies, $15
sharps disposal, $5
surgical recovery room, $20
sutures, $15

and the list goes on and on. An average spay in major metro areas now costs over $600 (and I've lately seen it priced as high as $1000), mainly due to the itemized charges REQUIRED by the insurance companies. The fact that 99% of pets are NOT insured has not been relevant; only what the insurance companies have demanded as proper billing procedure. They are many and they have armies of salesmen, so guess who loses??

As a side effect, veterinary hospitals became sufficiently profitable to attract corporate notice, and now we have chains that own many vet clinics, like VCA.

There have been studies of itemized (human) hospital bills which concluded that about 75% of the charges were bogus, either unused or vastly in excess of actual costs. Itemizing was supposed to eliminate hidden charges, but in fact it has vastly increased such charges -- after all, now they're documented, so they must be valid, right??

"Sharps disposal" (used needle trash box, not much different from an empty 1 litre pop bottle) is a great example. A sharps disposal unit costs $4 at Costco and is good for 1000 uses, but you get charged $5 or so per use. How's that for markup? this sort of thing didn't used to be billed at all, it was just incidental overhead. But since insurance wants every damn thing itemized, doctors complied... and look what that got us: Skyrocketing health care costs, and insurance rates had no choice but to go up sufficiently to cover that -- even tho their own policies drove the increased cost.

And that's before the lawyers got involved. Did you know that a specialty surgeon's malpractice insurance can cost as much as 90% of his gross income? That's because of lawyers seeking punitive damages on top of actual damages. Doctors who work for HMOs still need malpractice insurance, but now that's covered by the HMO -- and ultimately, YOU pay for it.

An HMO is fundamentally the same thing as socialized medicine in how it operates -- only difference is the money comes from your subscription rather than your taxes. But it limits your options in the same way (e.g. no more independent family doctors; you only get the care THEY deem fitting; anything not absolutely by the book will NOT be done). Now, imagine the gov't running HMOs, adding the gov't's estimated 70% overhead to the cost. THAT is what you're asking for when you support gov't-run health care.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:49 AM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,591,404 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reziac View Post
Yes, I am against labor unions. There was a time when they were necessary, but now they serve mainly to enrich union bosses and to influence Congress. Unions have probably cost more jobs over the past 40 years than all other factors combined. Take a look at America's rust belt, where unions, faced with the reality of cheaper labor overseas, chose to cling to their maxed out pay scales rather than adjust to compete with the global labor market.

Also, thanks for not reading what I wrote. Health insurance used to be only for catastrophic events, like accidents, heart attacks, and cancer, and was relatively affordable. AND you could find a family doctor who cost you all of $20 per visit. Now you pay $500/month, and for what? Most of us will never have a catastrophic event, but we do occasionally want to see a family doctor. Tell me how $500/month is more affordable than $20 on an as-needed basis??

Not to mention that in some areas, the independent family doctor is extinct. If you don't have insurance, there is NO ONE to go to, other than a federally funded hospital's emergency room. Long wait while exposed to many sick people (in some areas that means illegals with a high rate of TB).

Here's something I've been watching since its inception: pet health insurance. Only about 1% of pets are insured. However, since pet insurance began dictating billing practices, veterinary charges have skyrocketed -- they are now on average 10 times higher than they were just 10 years ago (wildly in excess of inflation or of actual cost increases to the vet clinics). Why??

Used to be your bill would be:

SPAY, $60

Now it reads like this:

surgery, 15 minutes at $200/hour, $50
anaesthesia, 15 minutes at $200/hour, $50
pre-anaesthesia, $20
autoclave supplies, $15
sharps disposal, $5
surgical recovery room, $20
sutures, $15

and the list goes on and on. An average spay in major metro areas now costs over $600 (and I've lately seen it priced as high as $1000), mainly due to the itemized charges REQUIRED by the insurance companies. The fact that 99% of pets are NOT insured has not been relevant; only what the insurance companies have demanded as proper billing procedure. They are many and they have armies of salesmen, so guess who loses??

As a side effect, veterinary hospitals became sufficiently profitable to attract corporate notice, and now we have chains that own many vet clinics, like VCA.

There have been studies of itemized (human) hospital bills which concluded that about 75% of the charges were bogus, either unused or vastly in excess of actual costs. Itemizing was supposed to eliminate hidden charges, but in fact it has vastly increased such charges -- after all, now they're documented, so they must be valid, right??

"Sharps disposal" (used needle trash box, not much different from an empty 1 litre pop bottle) is a great example. A sharps disposal unit costs $4 at Costco and is good for 1000 uses, but you get charged $5 or so per use. How's that for markup? this sort of thing didn't used to be billed at all, it was just incidental overhead. But since insurance wants every damn thing itemized, doctors complied... and look what that got us: Skyrocketing health care costs, and insurance rates had no choice but to go up sufficiently to cover that -- even tho their own policies drove the increased cost.

And that's before the lawyers got involved. Did you know that a specialty surgeon's malpractice insurance can cost as much as 90% of his gross income? That's because of lawyers seeking punitive damages on top of actual damages. Doctors who work for HMOs still need malpractice insurance, but now that's covered by the HMO -- and ultimately, YOU pay for it.

An HMO is fundamentally the same thing as socialized medicine in how it operates -- only difference is the money comes from your subscription rather than your taxes. But it limits your options in the same way (e.g. no more independent family doctors; you only get the care THEY deem fitting; anything not absolutely by the book will NOT be done). Now, imagine the gov't running HMOs, adding the gov't's estimated 70% overhead to the cost. THAT is what you're asking for when you support gov't-run health care.



So unions should lower the standards to compete with mexico and china? yeah that will help the worker.



A doctor for $20 huh? when the last time you went 1943?

You are failing to realize that a single payer system would cut everyones cost. unless you can convince doctors with 150k in student loans to work for 35k a year we need health insurance.


HMO's limit care in the same way PPO's do or traditional plans. They all limit care because they are in it to make profit not healthy people.

Face reality, more money is spent on curing baldness and erectile dysfunction than cancer by drug companies. Why ? because it makes money. If they cured cancer or stopped letting us eat cancer causing food then they wouldn't be able to charge you for treatment drugs for 20 years.

A single payer system eliminates profit. Something like 138 other countries have it. They spend half what we do with better results. Afghanistan and Iraq both have it and we basically formed their gov't.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:50 AM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,591,404 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtn_viking View Post
Some grist for the mill for the "taxes are too high" crowd. In the aftermath of the great depression until Kennedy was ellected, the highest federal income tax rate was 90%. During that time period, from approximately 1948-1964, the gap between the rich and poor in America was at its lowest.






Kennedy managed to lower the highest rate to 70% in '64. The business world hailed the decision. Since that time, the highest rate of income tax has consistently fallen. As that rate fell, the gap between the rich and poor widened. I'll try to attach that graph below.

Sorry, couldn't post the one graph I was able to find but it essentially shows that as the highest rate of income tax falls, wage disparity increases. Wage disparity prior to our latest "crash" was almost identical to wage disparity immediately prior to the great depression. Since 1964, the income gap has grown progressively. The power and profitability of our largest corporations has also grown hand in hand with that increase in income disparity.

Draw your own conclusions.


Just like the saying the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,018 posts, read 11,645,826 times
Reputation: 8982
Quote:
Originally Posted by organick View Post
or it is very easily accessible data. Get a clue its in black and white. Not really hard to find. Try google.
I have never seen anything like the people in the USA that reject facts. It's just amazing. Black is white. Hot is cold. Wet is dry. It blows me away. If the facts are in opposition to their pre concieved ideas then the facts are wrong. You can not argue or discuss anything with people of this mentality. Some recent examples of this are. There is no such thing as global warming. Just ask my son who lives in the Canadian Arctic. The permafrost is melting, the ice is largely gone,winters are shorter,Etc etc.
Coal is a clean way to make electricity. Here in Ontario we have closed almost all of our coal burners and will close the rest of them by 2012. You know who they pollute mostly? Upstate NY and northern Pa. We care about the environment even the American one.
Obama's a socialist. That's the best lie yet. The USA government owns less than 1% of the national economy. There is no universal health care, the minimum wage is a joke. Our prime Minister who is a fairly far to the right conservative is more of a socialist than Obama.
I have come to the conclusion that most of these extreme Americans are people who don't like their lives, Are very unhappy with the reality of what their country is and has always been. They have a vision of this "American Dream" that is just that, a dream. It's a wonderland that has never existed and never will. I will go as far to say that many who claim to be patriots are in fact Anti Americans who claim to really dislike the current administration but actually have a great dislike of their country and do like the America of their imaginations.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Michigan
36 posts, read 89,060 times
Reputation: 16
REMEMBER the 5th of NOVEMBER! just thought i'd insert this in this thread since it is applicable.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:53 AM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,591,404 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I have never seen anything like the people in the USA that reject facts. It's just amazing. Black is white. Hot is cold. Wet is dry. It blows me away. If the facts are in opposition to their pre concieved ideas then the facts are wrong. You can not argue or discuss anything with people of this mentality. Some recent examples of this are. There is no such thing as global warming. Just ask my son who lives in the Canadian Arctic. The permafrost is melting, the ice is largely gone,winters are shorter,Etc etc.
Coal is a clean way to make electricity. Here in Ontario we have closed almost all of our coal burners and will close the rest of them by 2012. You know who they pollute mostly? Upstate NY and northern Pa. We care about the environment even the American one.
Obama's a socialist. That's the best lie yet. The USA government owns less than 1% of the national economy. There is no universal health care, the minimum wage is a joke. Our prime Minister who is a fairly far to the right conservative is more of a socialist than Obama.
I have come to the conclusion that most of these extreme Americans are people who don't like their lives, Are very unhappy with the reality of what their country is and has always been. They have a vision of this "American Dream" that is just that, a dream. It's a wonderland that has never existed and never will. I will go as far to say that many who claim to be patriots are in fact Anti Americans who claim to really dislike the current administration but actually have a great dislike of their country and do like the America of their imaginations.


Thank you
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Old 11-06-2009, 03:27 PM
 
Location: West Yellowstone, MT
239 posts, read 648,191 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
I have never seen anything like the people in the USA that reject facts. It's just amazing. Black is white. Hot is cold. Wet is dry. It blows me away. If the facts are in opposition to their pre concieved ideas then the facts are wrong. You can not argue or discuss anything with people of this mentality. Some recent examples of this are. There is no such thing as global warming. Just ask my son who lives in the Canadian Arctic. The permafrost is melting, the ice is largely gone,winters are shorter,Etc etc.
Coal is a clean way to make electricity. Here in Ontario we have closed almost all of our coal burners and will close the rest of them by 2012. You know who they pollute mostly? Upstate NY and northern Pa. We care about the environment even the American one.
Obama's a socialist. That's the best lie yet. The USA government owns less than 1% of the national economy. There is no universal health care, the minimum wage is a joke. Our prime Minister who is a fairly far to the right conservative is more of a socialist than Obama.
I have come to the conclusion that most of these extreme Americans are people who don't like their lives, Are very unhappy with the reality of what their country is and has always been. They have a vision of this "American Dream" that is just that, a dream. It's a wonderland that has never existed and never will. I will go as far to say that many who claim to be patriots are in fact Anti Americans who claim to really dislike the current administration but actually have a great dislike of their country and do like the America of their imaginations.


Last I checked there is nothing wrong with questioning what some people call facts. As of today, we still live in a free country. We live in a free country where we can say and think what we want. If we want to keep our hard-earned paycheck rather than giving too much of it to the government, we have a right to say so. Funding government health care with tax dollars is what a lot of people call socialism. If Obama pushes socialistic programs, he might be a socialist. If he surrounds himself with socialists, he might be a socialist. If he can't produce a birth certificate, he might not be a US citizen. If he tells us we need to spend $787,000,000,000 to cap unemployment at 8%, he might be a liar or a least over his head. Now it is at 10.2%. WHAT A GENIUS!!!
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:58 AM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,591,404 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Doer View Post
Last I checked there is nothing wrong with questioning what some people call facts. As of today, we still live in a free country. We live in a free country where we can say and think what we want. If we want to keep our hard-earned paycheck rather than giving too much of it to the government, we have a right to say so. Funding government health care with tax dollars is what a lot of people call socialism. If Obama pushes socialistic programs, he might be a socialist. If he surrounds himself with socialists, he might be a socialist. If he can't produce a birth certificate, he might not be a US citizen. If he tells us we need to spend $787,000,000,000 to cap unemployment at 8%, he might be a liar or a least over his head. Now it is at 10.2%. WHAT A GENIUS!!!

With all do respect you do not have a clear understanding of what socialism is.

And I will again ask if you plan to collect social security, medicare, call the fire dept if your house burns, call the police if your car is stolen, drive on paved roads, use the public school system? or perhaps we should privatize each of those also so when there is a pot hole on your road you get a bill for 300 dollars, if your house burns you get a bill for 20,000 ??
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