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Old 11-09-2009, 06:12 AM
 
Location: NW Montana
6,258 posts, read 13,839,922 times
Reputation: 3440

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Shall we engage?
Let's talk politics, here in Montana and national.
What do you think about the slim margin that the health care passed with?
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:30 AM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,605,547 times
Reputation: 262
It won't pass the senate and its crap anyway. Nothing but a giveaway to big business again. We need real reform in the form of single payer. As long as health care is for profit it will never be a system that is good for all people. As long as your goal is money you will not provide the best possible care.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in time.
519 posts, read 1,310,934 times
Reputation: 281
I agree, no one is gonna win in the bill that is purposed, just as all the other things, the poor will continue to get poorer and the rich richer, those that can't afford decent health care will be the ones like now being punished, as well as the elderly. The only ones that will win again are the big buisnesses.
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:24 PM
 
369 posts, read 1,376,174 times
Reputation: 266
Organik says:
Quote:
It won't pass the senate and its crap anyway. Nothing but a giveaway to big business again. We need real reform in the form of single payer. As long as health care is for profit it will never be a system that is good for all people. As long as your goal is money you will not provide the best possible care.
I cannot believe the naivete of some American people. Is it because our government school system is full of fuzzy-headed liberals? Or is it because the entitlement society in which we live will never approve of something if it's not free. A couple of points:

There is no guarantee, unfortunately, that 'it won't pass the senate'. It wasn't supposed to make it in the House Bill either. The single payer crowd wants socialized medicine for America, because they think it will be free. You tell me how we are going to bring 47,000,000 uninsured (if that's the real number) into system with the number of doctors, nurses and hospitals we now have. That will lead to massive shortages of service and rationing of care. 'Big business'. The ROI for health insurance companies is 2%. It's about 8% for those villians Big Oil and upwards of 25% for software companies. 'For profit' is the villian for leftist commie pinko swine - ah - we need non-profits to run health care. Check out salaries of non-profit companies and government executive bureaucrats - extremely high for what they do. The major difference between a profit based corporation and a non-profit is that the latter does not have investors.

So you folks want the same government that screwed up the Post Office, Medicare, Social Security, Medicade, Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac and AMTRAK to take care of your wife and kids? Everyone of these programs are bankrupt and facing huge deficits in the years to come.

Ensure portability, freedom from pre-existing condition exemption, do tort reform and allow pooling of small companies and individuals to buy their health insurance out of state. Assist those truely in need. Require all government employees and Congressmen to use the system they are foisting on us. This will fix the problem.

Let the free market work.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:55 PM
 
Location: NW Montana
6,258 posts, read 13,839,922 times
Reputation: 3440
Yes this is how I want to debate!
It seems that this would not go into effect for a number of years. I also realized today that my full retirement age is now 67.
Good Lord.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:23 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 27,797,440 times
Reputation: 4530
Quote:
Originally Posted by organick View Post
As long as health care is for profit it will never be a system that is good for all people.
Just the opposite: get the federal and state gov'ts out of medical care and the free-market system will provide better medical care for all.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:32 PM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,605,547 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzfan View Post
Organik says:

I cannot believe the naivete of some American people. Is it because our government school system is full of fuzzy-headed liberals? Or is it because the entitlement society in which we live will never approve of something if it's not free. A couple of points:

There is no guarantee, unfortunately, that 'it won't pass the senate'. It wasn't supposed to make it in the House Bill either. The single payer crowd wants socialized medicine for America, because they think it will be free. You tell me how we are going to bring 47,000,000 uninsured (if that's the real number) into system with the number of doctors, nurses and hospitals we now have. That will lead to massive shortages of service and rationing of care. 'Big business'. The ROI for health insurance companies is 2%. It's about 8% for those villians Big Oil and upwards of 25% for software companies. 'For profit' is the villian for leftist commie pinko swine - ah - we need non-profits to run health care. Check out salaries of non-profit companies and government executive bureaucrats - extremely high for what they do. The major difference between a profit based corporation and a non-profit is that the latter does not have investors.

So you folks want the same government that screwed up the Post Office, Medicare, Social Security, Medicade, Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac and AMTRAK to take care of your wife and kids? Everyone of these programs are bankrupt and facing huge deficits in the years to come.
WOW were to start....Free, who ever said it would be free? Did you read my post? Have you researched other countries with single payer? No I don't think it will be free. I know it would be cheaper, cover EVERYONE for everything, not just those with money. See when everyone is pooled together you have a much lower risk factor and that in turn reduces costs.

Private insurance has a 30% overhead, medicare has about 3%.

ARE you really going to compare oil and computer software to Health insurance???Last time i checked no one died because they did not have powerpoint. The profits of insurance companies continue to go up while the amout of care provided continues to go down.




Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzfan View Post
Ensure portability, freedom from pre-existing condition exemption, do tort reform and allow pooling of small companies and individuals to buy their health insurance out of state. Assist those truely in need. Require all government employees and Congressmen to use the system they are foisting on us. This will fix the problem.

Let the free market work.

I agree about the tort reform and the gov employees getting the same insurance, however that wont fix it alone.

The idea of interstate commerce is useless. The whole industry is dominated by a few companies already and they own "small companies" in different states. The free market does not work, it has had its opportunity to work for health care since the 60's.



The single payer system needs to cover everyone, for all NEEDED health issues ( currently estimated that 30% of all health interventions and procedures are unnecessary).

You should look up a book called shock therapy for the american health care system. The doctor lays out a single payer system that adds no new costs and the result is a system that costs 550 billion a year less than the current one. Thats 550 billion that could be used for any numerous things.


PS there is really no reason to call names, it greatly diminishes your credibility.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:37 PM
 
2,087 posts, read 1,605,547 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
Just the opposite: get the federal and state gov'ts out of medical care and the free-market system will provide better medical care for all.


Give me a break. What part of making money hand over fist provides better health care? The free market has had its chance in health care and has screwed the American public.

Yes you will argue that its not a total free market but it certainly is not controlled.

The ins. companies continue to increase profit and lobbyists basically own congress and the senate.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:51 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 27,797,440 times
Reputation: 4530
Quote:
Originally Posted by organick View Post
Yes you will argue that its not a total free market but it certainly is not controlled.
With gov't mandated coverages and prohibitions on selling medical insurance across state lines, it is far from a free market.

Would you want to live in gov't housing, buy your clothes in a gov't clothing store or eat all your meals in a gov't cafeteria? I don't think so.

The more important the service or goods, the more important it is to get the gov't out of the way and let the free market supply these important services and goods.
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Montana
1,219 posts, read 2,999,851 times
Reputation: 687
You can't trust the government to look out for the good of all of us. Look at the stimulus. A trillion bucks to bail out the bastards that were causing the problems in the first place... I say they should have split up that trillion bucks and divided up and passed it to all the head of household taxpayers.. People would have been paying off debts, buying cars, and purchasing property. Of course the pricks that live off of the back of others disagree... For example what good would it be for a credit card company to not keep people paying constant monthly payments?.. These people didn't want to be paid off because it drops their interest incomes..

If I had my way we would completely destroy the corporate structure and go back to mom and pop shops, grocers buying from local farms, products made locally instead of buying from huge overseas outfits that don't even pay the workers a living wage etc.. and businesses that MAKE something instead of a million middlemen trying to make money off of someone else's labors. We need to simplify things and not let the Wal-Marts and Costco's price everyone else out of the market.

Small business is what kept this country great, and we need to take a step back and get things closer to home once again..

end of rant
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