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Hello all and bonjour! I'm writing to see if Quebeckers would welcome a change to the numbering system from 70 to 99. Nowadays, when I listen to French broadcasts, and they're mentioning any number from 70-99 or any number associated with it, it's usually soixante-dix rather than septante (70), soixante-quinze rather than septante-cinq (75), quatre-vente rather than huitante/octante (80), quatre-vente-quatre rather than octante-quatre (84), quatre-vente-dix rather than nonante (90), and quatre-vente-dix-neuf rather than nonante-neuf (99).
Both the old and new form mean the same thing, but with the new form, it's much simpler than saying literally, "sixty and ten", "sixty and fifteen", "four score", "four score four", "four twenty ten", and "four twenty nineteen". By bringing in the new French words for seventy, eighty, and ninety, it's simplifying the French language. I also understand that Belgium, Switzerland, and even the Congo uses septante, octante, and nonante over the old terms.
Even though I can now understand when newscasters, reporters, and other programmers use the old terms, I still feel that it's too complicated to use those terms, especially when septante, octante, and nonante are much closer to the Latin language than the old terms. All the major Latin languages have specific words for seventy, eighty, and ninety, and it's a shame that French didn't evolve, albeit it's nice that there's more modern words for seventy, eighty, and ninety in French, and it's a shame that Quebec doesn't use the new terms. Anybody know why?
Lastly, even though Montreal is no longer the financial center of Canada than it was in the past, albeit French is the other official language in Canada, using septante, octante, and nonante over soixante-dix, quatre-vente, and quatre-vente-dix would make a lot of transactions smoother, and if the Quebec government allowed a change in the numbering system between 70 through 99, that would change a lot of things around the province. Also, people new to the language (allophones) would have a much easier time remembering the new French numbers over the old numbers.
Your question brings up the discussion between old(er) French and modern day French. Other CDF posters earlier said that Quebecois French was closest to the French spoken in the old royal French courts or that it was "Medieval French frozen in time". The way you mention how Quebecois say those numbers is a lot like how long past English writers like Charles Dickens used to write their numbers.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal"
Four score meaning eighty and so four score and seven would be 87 years ago or equivalent to quatre-vente-sept.
But back to the discussion. Well, it depends on how comfortable the majority of Quebecois are in modernizing their language. It sounds easy to do on paper but in practice, if they have been saying quatre-vente for so long instead of octante and are too accustomed to saying quatre-vente, then the habit will be hard to change. Most English speakers nowadays admittedly will have to look up a dictionary in order to understand what President Lincoln meant by "four score" because that phrase has long fallen out of common use. Language, both written and spoken, evolves but only if speakers naturally start or stop using words and phrases can it evolve. I do not think government policy can easily make a language evolve unless the speakers agree to the policy upon which they might not even need the policy at all. The other thing to keep in mind is that the way a language is written or spoken may be a source of pride to locals and that may be another reason why the numbers have not changed for so long.
Last edited by Urban Peasant; 04-01-2023 at 09:49 AM..
The reason it remains so is that the system is the same as the one used in France. It is customary for Quebec to follow French rather than Belgian or Swiss grammatical norms. But as Urban Peasant remarked, it's not an easy task to upgrade long established patterns especiall speech wise. It does make sense to mention the efficiency of simplified form in this case, Wanderer34.
I am not in Quebec, but in BC. If the Qc newscasters/radio stations were to switch to the new form of numbering system, I would have a hard time and might need time to adjust my brain to it.
Both the old / French traditional numbering, and the newly proposed one, sound equally horrible.
I came from an European, Francophone country, and I still consider this numbering system weird, sorry to say.
I can now understand soixante-dix, quatre-vente, quatre-vent-dix, and quatre-vente-dix-neuf, etc. more clearly than ever before but I'll still admit the old French numebring system is very antiquated, IMHO. It's nice to follow the French in France for justabout everything but that would be like how an American would follow a Brit for everything from the metric system, to eating biscuits and tea and fish and chips, to even mimicking their accents.
Believe it or not, the closest form of the British accent in the US would have to be the New England Accent, the Boston Accent, the NY Accent, and the Philly Accent, all of which are non-rhotic, and all of which the first Americans settled before trekking out further west.
While both Quebeckers are mostly French, as well as continental French in Europe, both speak the same language, but even those two will have completely different accents, as Quebec French is considered joual, or poor man's French. Also, the continental French don't consider Quebeckers French in any manner other than just francophones and North Americans and not real French, no matter how much the French Quebeckers try to mimic the French to the point where KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) is called PFK (Poulet Frite au Kentucky) while KFC in France is just called KFC.
And French Quebeckers will be mixed with something other than just French (Italian, Irish, Jewish, Greek, Portuguese, German, First Nations, etc.), so it's pretty pitiful that French Quebeckers will bend over backwards to try to be like the French, even to the point of militarism of the French language and keeping certain language groups out of Montreal, while Paris is one the most, if not the most, cosmopolitan cities in the world along with NYC, London, and Toronto.
I guess the only way the numbering system changes is if the continental French start to adopt the new numbering system over the old one, and if the French do that, then the French Quebeckers will also adopt the new numbering system.
Well, first off, wanderer, with all due respect, it is not "vente", but vingt for twenty.
Apart from that, the numbering isn’t a mimicking per se of French norms in that respect, it just was never an issue here that anyone brought up in terms of revamping the language. It’s not a bad idea, you can take it up with linguists up here, but you should be a bit more fluent if you want to come across with a modicum of authority.
As far as Quebecois and the perception that French people have of us, or that joual is poor man’s French, joual is a Quebecois invention, it was an affirmation of the local vernacular versus the proper French that the media and high society here were bent on promoting. Just as there are many accents and even residual languages in France; Quebec and the rest of French Canada, or Louisiana, are legitimate when putting their vernacular Front and Center.
KFC has been in Quebec far longer than in France, the early sixties at least, and even then, it was known as Poulet Frit Kentucky. The French want it to be English because of the cachet. Quebec was flooded with English signage for a long time before the lawmakers decided to restrict the use of it, for good reason, since it didn’t a) communicate with the majority of its citizens, and b) it didn’t project a truthful aspect and aspiration of the community of which I speak.
no matter how much the French Quebeckers try to mimic the French to the point where KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) is called PFK (Poulet Frite au Kentucky) while KFC in France is just called KFC.
And French Quebeckers will be mixed with something other than just French (Italian, Irish, Jewish, Greek, Portuguese, German, First Nations, etc.), so it's pretty pitiful that French Quebeckers will bend over backwards to try to be like the French, .
The French language measures in Quebec are Quebec-originated, as Boorgong said. They are a reaction to Quebec's reality, and there is no real equivalent in France as they are not needed as they are an independent country of 60 million people with French as the only official language.
, even to the point of militarism of the French language and keeping certain language groups out of Montreal, .
If you went to Montreal you'd immediately notice that no language groups are "excluded" from the city.
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