Mon County Area Roads and Infrastructure (Charleston, Morgantown: wage, activities, companies)
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Thanks for posting that. While ostensibly the entire state is under maintained, as you pointed out, those tables illustrate glaring disparities in expenditures with our district regularly being short changed, and Mon County in particular getting the short end of the stick. There are 70% allocations for some districts, and 40% for others, notably ours. Also, note that the $300 million actually spent exceeds allocations, which gives rise to ask … how is it that more is spent in total than allocated while the county figures show percentages less than 100%. Something seems fishy there.
It isn't rocket science. They need to arrive at a fair formula that considers both the number of miles to be maintained and the amount of traffic on those roads, and legislate it into the permanent budget instead of leaving the decisions up to political hack bureaucrats.
Having some time to read through the document further, it appears that the DOH tables have been grossly misinterpreted by many in references that have been made on this page and elsewhere. The percentages listed in the tables are the percentages of the total budget for each district that were used on core maintenance. Core and non-core maintenance activities are defined in Appendix D beginning on page 40. The goal was for each district to use 70% of its budget on core maintenance. This is why those at 70% or above were highlighted in green because they met the goal. At the bottom of each table, it clearly states thatCore percentages are reported on the table. The residual (non-core) percentages are not reported for table formatting interest. Residual percentages are spent on non-core maintenance activities within the maintenance organization of interest. Core and non-core percentages add up to 100%.
In other words, each district is actually getting ALL of the money they are allocated. They just aren't spending the money on core maintenance activities as expected. So the state does not seem to be shirking any financial duty in any district. This is part of why I like to look at these documents in raw form rather than letting someone else try to say what it means. The politicians (and others) that have riled people up over "not getting their fair share" seem to have grossly misled people. In the process, further division and mistrust has been created between the areas of our state that need not exist. Everybody is getting what is allocated to them, there just isn't enough money in the pot to keep up.
Here’s the full DOH Audit FYI. It appears that NO district has been using the full allotment with most being in the 50% range. So the previously mentioned assumption that some districts were getting their full allotment plus some of what was left over from other districts appears to have been inaccurate.
That's an incorrect assumption. What people don't understand is not all of a district's allotment for routine maintenance automatically goes toward maintenance activities. That money (i.e. the remaining 50% in this case) can be shifted toward constantly changing priorities that take precedence over routine maintenance. Whether it be emergency repairs due to floods, slides, etc the money and resources get diverted and used up in other ways so it's not like the money is not being used. It doesn't even make sense that the DOH wouldn't use all of the money given to it considering the state of our roads. The media also incorrectly reported the same thing you are saying, but Tom Smith kept clarifying it every time he was in front of a microphone. However, the media just ignored it and kept reporting inaccuracies probably just to sow even more seeds of discord towards the DOH. While the media certainly has it out for the DOH, they do not seem to understand the issues it faces. If you don't have workers, how are you supposed to fix the roads? I'm not just referring to the DOH, but district 4 only has about 6 contractors that do work for the DOH and they have a huge backlog of work that was supposed to be completed last year (over 20 projects). Who will get the blame for not having enough contractors to do the work? Of course, the DOH will. But how can the DOH do the work when they don't even have the equipment to do it? They don't even own one paving machine in the entire state. If people really want the roads fixed, they will stop complaining about the DOH and start complaining to the governor that the gas tax needs to be raised significantly and DOH salaries need to be increased significantly to be competitive with gas/oil companies in the state to get the best workers. Who foresees that happening? Not me.
I think my second response is more in line with what you are saying. The first response was based on what had been previously (incorrectly) stated with just a quick look at the charts along those lines. My second post (after being able to more fully read the audit) clarifies that the percentages given in the charts are for Core maintenance while non-core tasks take up the rest of the money to total 100%.
Last edited by tbailey1138; 03-12-2019 at 05:53 PM..
Thanks for the reply. That's not right. If Justice had sent someone to tour all of District 4 rather than just Preston County they could have seen the whole picture. They would have seen similar conditions district wide and would have noted much lower population and traffic counts in Preston.
I wonder if this will change now with Tom Smith being ousted. Coincidentally, one each of Mon and Preston's county commissioners are on WAJR now. Tom Bloom from Mon is saying he is going to bring forward a state of emergency declaration here. It's time. (I agree!)
The second bolded part of your post I don't agree with. That thinking is part of the apathy from many (not singling you out) that got us in this mess. So, I guess if the roads are halfway passable (many times only if you drive in the wrong lane!) then it's not an emergency? Listen, I have seen flood damaged roads in different parts of the state that are no worse than ours either. Yet FEMA steps in with funding as collapsing roads ARE an emergency. They just throw up some cones here. If you are not in a flood prone area you are SOL with help. Even areas that haven't had entire sections of road collapse have edges collapsing everywhere. This is SO dangerous particularly at night. There is no pavement left for a white line to even stick to.
CT is right about different priorities between our delegates and commissioners. As was blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention to this last legislation session most of our delegates ARE more interested in social issues rather than local ones.
Yeah, it is likely going to blow up and Justice will have a mess on his hands with all other counties declaring "emergencies." The fact of the matter is that no matter how much Justice wants to puff out his chest and try to make himself look like the savior of the DOH, these problems aren't going to magically disappear within his administration like he thinks. There are way more issues at play here than can fit into his pea-sized brain. Tom Smith understood them very well and was doing the best he could despite being strung around on a leash by the governor. He basically did exactly what Justice asked him to, yet got fired for it. In other words, a scapegoat. It's a shame because Smith was a very intelligent, humble, and morally upright person. Justice even called Smith a "superstar" when he first appointed him. On another negative note, West Virginians were duped by the "roads to prosperity" scam in that Justice now plans to rob funding from it to be used for maintenance on secondary roads. That big list of new projects that Justice went around the state promoting was just snake oil. There goes that new bypass/bridge that Morgantown was supposed to get from that funding. In summary, Justice screwed things up, needed a fall guy, and now, tomorrow is going to come in and "save" the DOH. The guy is unbelievable.
Yeah, it is likely going to blow up and Justice will have a mess on his hands with all other counties declaring "emergencies." The fact of the matter is that no matter how much Justice wants to puff out his chest and try to make himself look like the savior of the DOH, these problems aren't going to magically disappear within his administration like he thinks. There are way more issues at play here than can fit into his pea-sized brain. Tom Smith understood them very well and was doing the best he could despite being strung around on a leash by the governor. He basically did exactly what Justice asked him to, yet got fired for it. In other words, a scapegoat. It's a shame because Smith was a very intelligent, humble, and morally upright person. Justice even called Smith a "superstar" when he first appointed him. On another negative note, West Virginians were duped by the "roads to prosperity" scam in that Justice now plans to rob funding from it to be used for maintenance on secondary roads. That big list of new projects that Justice went around the state promoting was just snake oil. There goes that new bypass/bridge that Morgantown was supposed to get from that funding. In summary, Justice screwed things up, needed a fall guy, and now, tomorrow is going to come in and "save" the DOH. The guy is unbelievable.
I doubt Harrison (where District 4 offices are located) will. The commissioners there made a statement that their primaries are fine but the secondary roads are terrible. The primary roads here are a disgrace. I can't think of one area unless it's been paved very recently where you can even drive a mile without swerving to avoid hitting a huge pothole or driving over pavement that is like a washboard.
I have heard good things about Tom Smith too. What I can't figure out is how the DOH has failed so badly at maintenance. Waiting with baited breath to see what Justice has to say tomorrow.
BTW, I support the findings of the Blue Ribbon Commission report that states we need an extra $750 million per year just to keep up on maintenance in this state. I am not wealthy either. It just has to be done.
The people I have talked to who retired from the DOH worked when we had local crews. I mean very local. The plow drivers mostly lived in the area they plowed, same thing with workers who repaired potholes and did ditching. This wasn't that long ago; I remember the plow drivers even slowing down to say hello when I was home shoveling snow. If you KNOW your area you can keep up on it. If they still worked like that they could find people even with not so great pay. What do people think tow truck drivers in this town make? I know one and it's the same or lower as DOH starting pay and can be a lot harder work with little or no benefits. They need a CDL also. The ones on call are going out during all hours in all weather (especially busy during the Polar Vortex) to jump cars, change tires and pull cars out of ditches. Park in the wrong place in this town and see how fast one shows up.
We are being failed in this state and it's past time the issue is addressed. The legislature should have called a special session years ago when the Blue Ribbon report came out.
I doubt Harrison (where District 4 offices are located) will. The commissioners there made a statement that their primaries are fine but the secondary roads are terrible. The primary roads here are a disgrace. I can't think of one area unless it's been paved very recently where you can even drive a mile without swerving to avoid hitting a huge pothole or driving over pavement that is like a washboard.
I have heard good things about Tom Smith too. What I can't figure out is how the DOH has failed so badly at maintenance. Waiting with baited breath to see what Justice has to say tomorrow.
BTW, I support the findings of the Blue Ribbon Commission report that states we need an extra $750 million per year just to keep up on maintenance in this state. I am not wealthy either. It just has to be done.
The people I have talked to who retired from the DOH worked when we had local crews. I mean very local. The plow drivers mostly lived in the area they plowed, same thing with workers who repaired potholes and did ditching. This wasn't that long ago; I remember the plow drivers even slowing down to say hello when I was home shoveling snow. If you KNOW your area you can keep up on it. If they still worked like that they could find people even with not so great pay. What do people think tow truck drivers in this town make? I know one and it's the same or lower as DOH starting pay and can be a lot harder work with little or no benefits. They need a CDL also. The ones on call are going out during all hours in all weather (especially busy during the Polar Vortex) to jump cars, change tires and pull cars out of ditches. Park in the wrong place in this town and see how fast one shows up.
We are being failed in this state and it's past time the issue is addressed. The legislature should have called a special session years ago when the Blue Ribbon report came out.
Well there is a reason Harrison county had to be drug to the table of the NCWV road group kicking and screaming. They were not (and probably still aren’t) happy the other counties in this district are complaining about funding and changing the way money is allocated. Their reps skipped the first couple meetings.
As for the roads in general, I don’t know what the clear cut solution is, but I’m past the blame game and fully into just FIX THE F&$#@*% ROADS ALREADY. I don’t want to hear we can’t, I don’t want to hear excuses, I just want to hear we are working on it and seeing progress. I’d also like to see all major primary roads with a good amount of traffic (interstates, Patteson Drive, Beechurst, 705, mile ground, etc) be mandated to be concrete roads, it’s plainly obvious if even a little bit of preventative maintanence is done to them over the years they will last at least 40 years (well worth the investment). Also instead of wasting money every year repainting the lines on the roads, put the lines down that last multiple years like pretty much ever other state does.
For all roads, part of the yearly maintenance in the summer should be applying liquid tar to all minor cracks (major cracks should be cut out and fixed) that way water doesn’t seep in in the winter and cause pot holes (while it makes the road look like it has black spaghetti on it, it really seems to help).
The state should also buy pot hole repair machines that grind down a bad spot to the base, mix the aggregate and gravel with new tar and reapply the old pavement in a new patch, and every county should be allocated at least one (at least two for the more populated counties).
Also look at what VA is doing with northern VA, northern VA has a lot higher of a demand for new infrastructure than most of the rest of the state. To make it fair to the rest of the state and northern VA they pay higher sales tax (and maybe gas tax?, someone from VA please correct me), but that money is kept in that area for their projects, not sent to the rest of the state to feed off of them. WV needs to look into doing something like that for Jefferson and Berkeley County as a group, Monongalia and Marion and Harrison County (and maybe Preston) as a group and finally Putnam and Kanawha and Cabell county as a group. All three of these groups would be separate and have the ability to chose their own Levy rates (gas, registration, hotel and sales tax rates and maybe even a user fee for people working within that group of counties (this could help capture some of the oil and gas work in each county that is being done by out of state workers)) and the people who would decide on that is all the county comssioners for each group. The state would still keep what ever percentage amount they normally would keep (of the normal base tax amount) to distribute to the other counties, but the rest of the money that normally comes back to each county in these select groups, that county still retains that money plus all of the new levied tax amounts. Also the DOH would have nothing to do with any of the roads in these select groups any more other than the interstates or any project that is receiveing federal dollars. Also the groups would be able to devote money to the interstates if they so choose so, like adding extra lanes even if the DOH doesn’t think it is necessary. So in essence, these select groups would now be responsible for paving, ditching, patching, plowing and any other DOH function within their territory other than interstates (which they would partner with the DOH on).
BTW, I support the findings of the Blue Ribbon Commission report that states we need an extra $750 million per year just to keep up on maintenance in this state. I am not wealthy either. It just has to be done.
To me, this means we need to begin scaling back the number of paved roads and types of maintenance. Maybe outright closure of roads.
Well there is a reason Harrison county had to be drug to the table of the NCWV road group kicking and screaming. They were not (and probably still aren’t) happy the other counties in this district are complaining about funding and changing the way money is allocated. Their reps skipped the first couple meetings.
As for the roads in general, I don’t know what the clear cut solution is, but I’m past the blame game and fully into just FIX THE F&$#@*% ROADS ALREADY. I don’t want to hear we can’t, I don’t want to hear excuses, I just want to hear we are working on it and seeing progress. I’d also like to see all major primary roads with a good amount of traffic (interstates, Patteson Drive, Beechurst, 705, mile ground, etc) be mandated to be concrete roads, it’s plainly obvious if even a little bit of preventative maintanence is done to them over the years they will last at least 40 years (well worth the investment). Also instead of wasting money every year repainting the lines on the roads, put the lines down that last multiple years like pretty much ever other state does.
For all roads, part of the yearly maintenance in the summer should be applying liquid tar to all minor cracks (major cracks should be cut out and fixed) that way water doesn’t seep in in the winter and cause pot holes (while it makes the road look like it has black spaghetti on it, it really seems to help).
The state should also buy pot hole repair machines that grind down a bad spot to the base, mix the aggregate and gravel with new tar and reapply the old pavement in a new patch, and every county should be allocated at least one (at least two for the more populated counties).
Also look at what VA is doing with northern VA, northern VA has a lot higher of a demand for new infrastructure than most of the rest of the state. To make it fair to the rest of the state and northern VA they pay higher sales tax (and maybe gas tax?, someone from VA please correct me), but that money is kept in that area for their projects, not sent to the rest of the state to feed off of them. WV needs to look into doing something like that for Jefferson and Berkeley County as a group, Monongalia and Marion and Harrison County (and maybe Preston) as a group and finally Putnam and Kanawha and Cabell county as a group. All three of these groups would be separate and have the ability to chose their own Levy rates (gas, registration, hotel and sales tax rates and maybe even a user fee for people working within that group of counties (this could help capture some of the oil and gas work in each county that is being done by out of state workers)) and the people who would decide on that is all the county comssioners for each group. The state would still keep what ever percentage amount they normally would keep (of the normal base tax amount) to distribute to the other counties, but the rest of the money that normally comes back to each county in these select groups, that county still retains that money plus all of the new levied tax amounts. Also the DOH would have nothing to do with any of the roads in these select groups any more other than the interstates or any project that is receiveing federal dollars. Also the groups would be able to devote money to the interstates if they so choose so, like adding extra lanes even if the DOH doesn’t think it is necessary. So in essence, these select groups would now be responsible for paving, ditching, patching, plowing and any other DOH function within their territory other than interstates (which they would partner with the DOH on).
We have a higher gas tax in Northern Virginia than the rest of the state. I wouldn't call it 'fair' as Richmond still finds a way of using us as the cash cow for the rest of the state - our roads are still largely gridlock but that is more a sign that they can't keep up with the growth than anything else. Most of our lane expansions recently have been High Occupancy Toll Lanes (HOT Lanes) where you ride free if you're carpooling or you pay a distance based toll to bypass the gridlock. Traffic is so bad on some of the roads here and people have deep pockets that some mornings on 66 into DC it has been $40 to go 10 miles. Good times if you can afford to pay or find a carpool to join.
To me, this means we need to begin scaling back the number of paved roads and types of maintenance. Maybe outright closure of roads.
I agree. This has been discussed for rural counties like Preston. Their main arteries are terrible like ours and that needs addressed but they are going to have to come up with a plan for their backroads in a sane way. These roads can be 5 miles long and only service 5 homes. Some residents I have talked to are reasonable and would be fine with a gravel road. More homes could warrant a tar and chip road. Of course, some residents want it all and I can't see that it is possible.
Changing the way things are done could lower that maintenance figure. I really wish our leaders would have hashed this out in a special session years ago. It's too big of an issue and our reps have proven they can't multi task.
I really worry that some roads are too far gone and we will need to start over. The lack of maintenance with no diversion of water has caused water to run not only over the roads but under them destroying the road bed. People on River Road were complaining for years that they could see water bubbling up through the pavement when it rains hard or when snow melts. We have slides all over District 4 now.
I agree. This has been discussed for rural counties like Preston. Their main arteries are terrible like ours and that needs addressed but they are going to have to come up with a plan for their backroads in a sane way. These roads can be 5 miles long and only service 5 homes. Some residents I have talked to are reasonable and would be fine with a gravel road. More homes could warrant a tar and chip road. Of course, some residents want it all and I can't see that it is possible.
Changing the way things are done could lower that maintenance figure. I really wish our leaders would have hashed this out in a special session years ago. It's too big of an issue and our reps have proven they can't multi task.
I really worry that some roads are too far gone and we will need to start over. The lack of maintenance with no diversion of water has caused water to run not only over the roads but under them destroying the road bed. People on River Road were complaining for years that they could see water bubbling up through the pavement when it rains hard or when snow melts. We have slides all over District 4 now.
River Road is a sore point with me.
Dupont and River Road were HEAVILY used. Now with only Dupont servicing the Westwood, the industrial park and especially the transfer station, and residents the congestion is ridiculous. Dupont is falling apart as well now - with large trenches forming int he middle of the road 6 to 8 inches deep.
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