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The problem is not democracy. It is unregulated capitalism.
Periodically we go to the right...we decide that the free market should rule...remove the regulators and boom...the capitalists maximize profits at the cost of wrecking something.
Capitalism appears the desirable economic system across a wide swath of human endeavour. It is obvious however it requires a level of regulation so that the players don't cheat, but not enough regulation as to interfere with the market.
I suspect that balance can only be hit by a centrist regime. Both the far left and far right will go to far.
McCain of course should be poison on this subject. Obama somewhat better.
" Unregulated capitalism " is regulated through the exercise of democratic prerogatives, i.e. who we choose / elect to regulate or deregulate in this instance - that Democracy is You & Me.
We either assume responsibility for staying informed & making our voices heard - not just about regulation, though the result of our negligence there is now Screaming for attention - or we all go down, albeit by default.
Again, an abysmal educational failure, i guess : way too many Americans just dont understand the very Direct Connection between their actions & the government they do or do not get . . .
To paraphrase : if you think this lesson is too costly, try continued ignorance . .
" Unregulated capitalism " is regulated through the exercise of democratic prerogatives, i.e. who we choose / elect to regulate or deregulate in this instance - that Democracy is You & Me.
We either assume responsibility for staying informed & making our voices heard - not just about regulation, though the result of our negligence there is now Screaming for attention - or we all go down, albeit by default.
Again, an abysmal educational failure, i guess : way too many Americans just dont understand the very Direct Connection between their actions & the government they do or do not get . . .
To paraphrase : if you think this lesson is too costly, try continued ignorance . .
I don't think we are very far apart. The problem of course is that you need a centrist or even left of center government to avoid the under regulation problem. And unfortunately we don't elect our government based on economic policy. YOu pretty much get a set...economic regulation, pro-choice, pro-amnesty, socialized medicine, end the Iraq war are pretty much a set.
We don't give much priority to the economic issue.
I don't think we are very far apart. The problem of course is that you need a centrist or even left of center government to avoid the under regulation problem. And unfortunately we don't elect our government based on economic policy. YOu pretty much get a set...economic regulation, pro-choice, pro-amnesty, socialized medicine, end the Iraq war are pretty much a set.
We don't give much priority to the economic issue.
from some things you've said, i think we might agree on alot, olecapt . .
my only point was (especially now that the Chickens of Our Own Ignorance have finally come home to roost) that this crisis, like no other really, is revealing just how many Americans dont see the connection between their personal political choices & what happens to them in their everyday lives. ( & btw not voting is also a vote . . )
To stretch an anaolgy to absurdity, reminds me of primitive man not * getting * the connection between sexual activity & the presence of children ( warned you it was absurd but there is a similarity & its what came to mind . . lol . . &, well, i guess too that some might use a sexual term to describe what has happened to our economy while we were sleeping at the wheel . . lol )
When they do actually vote, many Americans dont seem to give serious consideration to the issues ( i'll bet many dont even explore the candidates positions & reflect on how those positions would affect them ). When they do participate, many, like children, seem to look to irrelevant, inconsequential, or even dangerous peripherals in choosing who they want to run their lives ( s/he's cool / sexy / looks like me / would be fun to party with / is masterful in delivering 1 line slam-dunks & if Truth is a casualty, so be it ) - & in so doing, sink the ship & then complain that they got what they voted for.
Those who treat elections as sports events or theatre, need to be prepared for tragedy as well as comedy - & at the very least be prepared to be VERY Good Sports.
Hopefully, this Wake Up Call will encourage a willingness to carefully consider just how this happened & where they . . THEY . . either through action or inaction, intentionally or unintentionally . . fit into the bloodbath.
Was it Einstien who defined Insanity as doing the same thing over & over again & expecting a different result ? ( did he really say that ? lol Brilliant nevertheless & apropos ! lol )
In any event, if Tragedy is not something we want to spend our lives entertaining & really DO want to avoid fiascos like this, we Can Choose a Better Path . . we can choose to stop acting like feverish adolescents & begin to connect the dots . . the dots that lead out from our own backyards . .
Last edited by alexandrasleaving; 09-22-2008 at 07:41 PM..
I am strongly against any type of bailout for people who bought overpriced houses. If someone signed at a teaser rate and can no longer afford payments when their APR jumps they quite frankly deserve to lose their house. They knew, or should have known, that the teaser rate would not last. Maybe they bought into the hype that housing prices would keep going up forever. They had the right to be true believers in the cult of housing, but they DON"T have the right to be bailed out if their beliefs were false.
What's upsetting to me is that both major parties are pro-bailout. It's no surprise that Dems are in favor of a bailout and look at consumers who bought overpriced homes as"victims". But it's a major dissappointment that Bush is also in favor of a bailout. I wish we had a President who was 1000X more conservative than Bush and let the free market flow with no nanny state intervention.
You think this is a bailout for homeowners.. it's not.. it's a bail out for wallstreet and the banking companies. Homeowners will not benefit at all..
as a matter of fact they get it twice..they lose their house AND they get to be part of the "taxpayers"that are fitting the bill for the wall street bailout
You think this is a bailout for homeowners.. it's not.. it's a bail out for wallstreet and the banking companies. Homeowners will not benefit at all..
as a matter of fact they get it twice..they lose their house AND they get to be part of the "taxpayers"that are fitting the bill for the wall street bailout
Not clear yet. Depends on not yet known detail. and there are now other agents into the scene.
It is a bailout for Wall Street and the banks. Congress wants the treasury to buy the paper (troubled bank assets), not the houses.
There aren't any investment banks left because of this deregulation which created a derivatives market with obscene leverage.
Loans were approved and underwritten by lenders who didn't service them. They bundled them up and sold them as securities to investment banks, who in turn traded them and their high yields using the derivatives market.
This particular bailout legislation doesn't mean flippers keep their houses. It means the entities who financed the flippers get bailed out with your tax dollars.
Now they (Congress) want to add student loan debt, credit card debt, auto loans, etc. -- whatever paper is either already in default or has a high risk of default, because the goons on Wall Street bundled these loans with mortgages too.
As voters, we have the ability to fire every single person in Congress up for re-election this November. They created this mess; they can pay for it with their jobs.
The problem is not democracy. It is unregulated capitalism.
Periodically we go to the right...we decide that the free market should rule...remove the regulators and boom...the capitalists maximize profits at the cost of wrecking something.
Capitalism appears the desirable economic system across a wide swath of human endeavour. It is obvious however it requires a level of regulation so that the players don't cheat, but not enough regulation as to interfere with the market.
I suspect that balance can only be hit by a centrist regime. Both the far left and far right will go to far.
McCain of course should be poison on this subject. Obama somewhat better.
I am not sure why you are pushing the left view based on what you said its contradictory. It was Clintons Administration that pushed the de-regulation that FDR had put in place from the depression. That was just the beginning after doing that, they pushed to allow low income and bad credit families to be able to finance. The devoloped the types of loans that would be used and how.
I think you have a misconception of the way things are. The left wants government to oversee everything and collect taxes on it. The right wants limited government and to let the economy expand on its own. We learned from the great depression a great deal of how to regulate a free market.
I am not sure what Obama has to do with this. The only thing he has proposed is a trillion dollars worth of programs probably most of which will fail. Like his chicago project that he earmarked and got one of his best friends wealthy from.You really think Obama's community organizing skills are enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by southreno
It is a bailout for Wall Street and the banks. Congress wants the treasury to buy the paper (troubled bank assets), not the houses.
There aren't any investment banks left because of this deregulation which created a derivatives market with obscene leverage.
Loans were approved and underwritten by lenders who didn't service them. They bundled them up and sold them as securities to investment banks, who in turn traded them and their high yields using the derivatives market.
This particular bailout legislation doesn't mean flippers keep their houses. It means the entities who financed the flippers get bailed out with your tax dollars.
Now they (Congress) want to add student loan debt, credit card debt, auto loans, etc. -- whatever paper is either already in default or has a high risk of default, because the goons on Wall Street bundled these loans with mortgages too.
As voters, we have the ability to fire every single person in Congress up for re-election this November. They created this mess; they can pay for it with their jobs.
While this sounds bad, its absolutely needed. They havent solidified what will happen yet. But during the last savings and loan crash they had an independant company that was very profitable holding the paper, while publicaly traded, instead of the treasury. There is no reason why this cant work again.
I am glad that they are assessing the credit bureaus now as well. Some good has come out of this. Perhaps from now on people wont be penalized for having 0 balances on credit cards or paying loans off early, among other things. Perhaps when someone attachs a collection on someones credit the person will be notofied. Many things can really change for the better from this.
I am not sure why you are pushing the left view based on what you said its contradictory. It was Clintons Administration that pushed the de-regulation that FDR had put in place from the depression. That was just the beginning after doing that, they pushed to allow low income and bad credit families to be able to finance. The devoloped the types of loans that would be used and how.
The blow up had virtually nothing to do with low income or poor neighborhoods. All that worked fine for years until the greed got loose in the 2004-2007 time frame. It is simply that nobody was watching. That is Bush and Wall Street....not do good demo projects.
Quote:
I think you have a misconception of the way things are. The left wants government to oversee everything and collect taxes on it. The right wants limited government and to let the economy expand on its own. We learned from the great depression a great deal of how to regulate a free market.
What we have learned repeatedly is that unrestrained capitalism self destructs. They do what they say they will - maximize profit at the cost of anything else. Been a number of wonderful examples in recent years...
You would think we would learn...and then we elect Bush.
Quote:
I am not sure what Obama has to do with this. The only thing he has proposed is a trillion dollars worth of programs probably most of which will fail. Like his chicago project that he earmarked and got one of his best friends wealthy from.You really think Obama's community organizing skills are enough?
As opposed to McCain's well known skills in deregulation? I hope you are kindding...but I doubt it.
Quote:
While this sounds bad, its absolutely needed. They havent solidified what will happen yet. But during the last savings and loan crash they had an independant company that was very profitable holding the paper, while publicaly traded, instead of the treasury. There is no reason why this cant work again.
Expect a bath. One hopes for some offset. The question is do you provide the socialist buy out to the big bad guys while holding the individual to a tight capitalist standard? Interesting question.
Quote:
I am glad that they are assessing the credit bureaus now as well. Some good has come out of this. Perhaps from now on people wont be penalized for having 0 balances on credit cards or paying loans off early, among other things. Perhaps when someone attachs a collection on someones credit the person will be notofied. Many things can really change for the better from this.
[/quote]
You don't understand...a lot of that around. Wrong credit agencies. They are talking about regulating the ones who found the securitized mortgages A+ safe. Not the card agencies.
The blow up had virtually nothing to do with low income or poor neighborhoods. All that worked fine for years until the greed got loose in the 2004-2007 time frame. It is simply that nobody was watching. That is Bush and Wall Street....not do good demo projects.
What we have learned repeatedly is that unrestrained capitalism self destructs. They do what they say they will - maximize profit at the cost of anything else. Been a number of wonderful examples in recent years...
You would think we would learn...and then we elect Bush.
As opposed to McCain's well known skills in deregulation? I hope you are kindding...but I doubt it.
Expect a bath. One hopes for some offset. The question is do you provide the socialist buy out to the big bad guys while holding the individual to a tight capitalist standard? Interesting question.
You don't understand...a lot of that around. Wrong credit agencies. They are talking about regulating the ones who found the securitized mortgages A+ safe. Not the card agencies.[/quote]
i don't even understand your post. mccain tried to push through a bill to regulate the industry in 2005 and the bill died in committee. on the bloomberg report, Sept. 19 (Bloomberg) -- John McCain condemned ``lax'' regulation and urged the Federal Reserve to ``get out of the business of bailouts,'' as his Democratic presidential rival Barack Obama supported Bush administration plans to resolve the worst U.S. financial crisis since the Great Depression. i have no idea how you think that obama is better equipped to handle this economic problem, especially since he was the 3rd highest recipient in contributions from the people involved. i am seriously starting to think that only mccain understood the problem that this was going to cause and its economic effect. i hope that he holds out against the bailout.
not sure where some are getting their information about mc cain being a regulator ( unless you mean since his baptism by fire over the last few days, hence his being dubbed by the press now as a " born again regulator " . . aka expedient politician . . lol )
historically, mc cain has been a huge sponsor of DEregulation & for anyone who doubts this, i invite you to listen to mc cain tell you himself where he stands . . err, stood - see you tube video on this page >> John McCain: The Fundamental Deregulator (VIDEO)
Last edited by alexandrasleaving; 09-23-2008 at 02:59 PM..
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