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Omaha Rocks: I'd rather be in New Mexico (not so much now, it's getting too cold out there) because of the mountains and great roads through them! The "Enchanted Circle", through Taos, Questa, Red Riner, Eagle Nest and Angel Fire, is a beautiful ride, and just one among many.
The BMW guys would comment, but their final drives failed on the way to the computer.
As far as all the bashing goes, I don't think that many would knock HD if their bikes weren't priced out of the stratosphere. If they were priced at what they're "worth" - call it $15K and less, as opposed to being priced at what the market will bear, there would be fewer haters. HD - 19th century technology at 22nd century pricing.
But their worth is determined by whatever the market will bear. Every company selling every product is selling it for what the market will bear. Otherwise, they would be considered charitable organizations. You dont think Kawa, Victory, Honda, or BMW are selling for what the market will bear? If Harley lowered their price, Honda would have to lower theirs too because they would lose many of the buyers who are buying them because they are cheaper than Harleys. Then you would, again, be asking why Harleys cost more than Hondas.
Originality goes a long way. Not to mention that a lot of people, myself included, prefer buying American products, and will pay more for them. It is impossible to buy ONLY American products these days, but we do what we can. If I didn't have a Harley, I'd buy a Victory or an Indian. I love when people counter "but they have foreign parts in them." Yeah. Oh well. Not much I can do about that, but at least the bulk of the money is going towards American jobs. I will only buy an American car that was made in America too. My one non-American semi-big ticket item is my Vespa, and that is because...hell...because it's a Vespa and it's original. But to say that Harley should charge less because YOU think they are worth less is crazy. They, like every other company on the planet, charges what the market will bear.
But their worth is determined by whatever the market will bear. Every company selling every product is selling it for what the market will bear. Otherwise, they would be considered charitable organizations. You dont think Kawa, Victory, Honda, or BMW are selling for what the market will bear? If Harley lowered their price, Honda would have to lower theirs too because they would lose many of the buyers who are buying them because they are cheaper than Harleys. Then you would, again, be asking why Harleys cost more than Hondas.
Originality goes a long way. Not to mention that a lot of people, myself included, prefer buying American products, and will pay more for them. It is impossible to buy ONLY American products these days, but we do what we can. If I didn't have a Harley, I'd buy a Victory or an Indian. I love when people counter "but they have foreign parts in them." Yeah. Oh well. Not much I can do about that, but at least the bulk of the money is going towards American jobs. I will only buy an American car that was made in America too. My one non-American semi-big ticket item is my Vespa, and that is because...hell...because it's a Vespa and it's original. But to say that Harley should charge less because YOU think they are worth less is crazy. They, like every other company on the planet, charges what the market will bear.
You're right. It's all about what the market will bear.
I spent less on my new Vulcan than I would have had to on a new Harley. About half. I didn't have $20,000 to spend on a new Harley, so I bought a "similar" cycle for under $9,000. But we both know that if/when I go to sell it, it'll be worth less than a Harley of the same age & miles.
Did I make the right choice? For me, yes. It is what it is, and I'm fine with it. It's just that everyone should be honest about it.
Omaha Rocks: I'd rather be in New Mexico (not so much now, it's getting too cold out there) because of the mountains and great roads through them! The "Enchanted Circle", through Taos, Questa, Red Riner, Eagle Nest and Angel Fire, is a beautiful ride, and just one among many.
Ahhhh... I'm not from that part of the country and have never been there, but this sounds very cool!
I have no problem with the pricing. I have no problem with HD owners.
It just seems to me, and by the comments on this thread, I'm not alone, that most have an issue with those that need to justify the high cost of the HD "lifestyle" by creating this fabricated world of performance and exclusivity and overall "badassness" that comes with the brand.
Is HD a good bike? Sure. Does the bike justify its pricetag? Not to me, but to some the lifestyle and association with others the answer is a absolute yes.
I just wish more of the bar and shield folks were honest with their reason for ownership.
As far as the buy American stuff goes. Meh. It's so tough to determine point of origin now that it's hardley worth the effort.
Camaros are made in Canada, Honda Shadows are made in the US, so are Victorys. Gold Wings used to be, but aren't anymore. Toyota trucks are made in Texas, but F150's and Silverados are made in Mexico and Canada. I don't know where HD sources the blocks for their aircooled motors, but the V-Rod is made by Porsche and the Buell 1125 was made by Rotax in Austria. Their electronics are all Japanese or Italian, and I don't believe even the tires are made here anymore. If you really want to support the company and think it's great, buy their stock.
mikeyyc: I couldn't agree more. That's exactly how I see it. Everything is multi-national.
And thats exactly where our downfall began. Great for the corporations. Seemingly good for the consumer...at first. Then when he no longer has a job, he cant even afford the cheap Chinese crap at Walmart and Toys R US. If you are a working class person in a rich country, protectionism is a GOOD thing. We should have listened to our grandparents when they said not to buy foreign made goods. That generation also said not to borrow money for things and dont trust the banks. Living through a depression must made them pretty smart. Instead, we listened to economists who work for banks and corporations to do what is in THEIR best interest instead of the people's. The results are evident. We are completely losing our middle class, and the income gap is widening at a very quick pace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc
Blah, Blah, blah...
Camaros are made in Canada, Honda Shadows are made in the US, so are Victorys. Gold Wings used to be, but aren't anymore. Toyota trucks are made in Texas, but F150's and Silverados are made in Mexico and Canada. I don't know where HD sources the blocks for their aircooled motors, but the V-Rod is made by Porsche and the Buell 1125 was made by Rotax in Austria. Their electronics are all Japanese or Italian, and I don't believe even the tires are made here anymore. If you really want to support the company and think it's great, buy their stock.
Thats why, when I buy a car I make sure of where it was made. (See above) I cant do much about individual parts, but I do what I can. I'm not telling anyone else what to do, this is just something I do for myself. It helps me sleep better at night. I have no problem with Victory. It's a good American company. I would buy one before I would buy a V-Rod. Honda Shadows may well be made in America, but why buy a bike where most of the money is shipped out of the country when I could buy one where most stays here. I'm glad Honda is providing some jobs here, but I can buy a bike where the jobs AND the profit stay here. Thats even better, IMHO.
Thats why, when I buy a car I make sure of where it was made. (See above) I cant do much about individual parts, but I do what I can. I'm not telling anyone else what to do, this is just something I do for myself. It helps me sleep better at night. I have no problem with Victory. It's a good American company. I would buy one before I would buy a V-Rod. Honda Shadows may well be made in America, but why buy a bike where most of the money is shipped out of the country when I could buy one where most stays here. I'm glad Honda is providing some jobs here, but I can buy a bike where the jobs AND the profit stay here. Thats even better, IMHO.
What component defines where a vehicle is made to you? Final assembly, or perponderance of components?
There is no such thing as an American company anymore. There are successful companies, and unsuccessful ones. Every large manufacturer is a public company. Shareholders are the ones that reap the profits. Who owns the shares determines where the profit goes.
If you owned shares in GM last year, you are officially broke, as the company went bankrupt. If you own shares in Honda you've been paid about $1.50 per share each year as your part of the profit. There are no National awards for your pride. It would be a safe bet that Honda contributed more to the US economy than GM and/or Harley did, in terms of employment, tax paid, and overall stimulus to the economy.
We can continue the Econ 101 lesson elsewhere, as this has taken the thread waaaaaaaaaaaaayy off topic. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
What component defines where a vehicle is made to you? Final assembly, or perponderance of components?
There is no such thing as an American company anymore. There are successful companies, and unsuccessful ones. Every large manufacturer is a public company. Shareholders are the ones that reap the profits. Who owns the shares determines where the profit goes.
If you owned shares in GM last year, you are officially broke, as the company went bankrupt. If you own shares in Honda you've been paid about $1.50 per share each year as your part of the profit. There are no National awards for your pride. It would be a safe bet that Honda contributed more to the US economy than GM and/or Harley did, in terms of employment, tax paid, and overall stimulus to the economy.
We can continue the Econ 101 lesson elsewhere, as this has taken the thread waaaaaaaaaaaaayy off topic. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
Much of what you have said is peripheral, and econ smoke and mirrors (A HUGE part of the problem) rather than econ 101. I can easily counter just about everything you have said, but you are right about 1 thing. This is not the correct forum. So I will leave it at that.
Harleys shake thats normal. The best selling bike for Harley is the sportster
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