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As we've seen by reactions to Superman in Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, it's very relevant.
A lot of people still want the Blue Boy Scout. A lot of people still want him juggling tanks while flashing his Crest 3D Whitestrips-enhanced smile. The smile is very important. People want him to be a buffoon as Clark. They don't want to see shirtless Clark, muscles rippling, climbing into a bathtub with Lois for very wet shenanigans. It's not "1940s-1970s" enough.
Rocket Raccoon had more pull. Because he's a little upright raccoon. People didn't know who or what a "Star-Lord" was. And that's not Star-Lord in the movie. The original stories are awesome. The guy in that movie is just Chris Pratt. He was great in Parks & Recreation.
You don't speak for everybody. Batman kills on film. Batman kills in Tim Burton's movie. "The Batplane has guns. Cool." Batman kills in BvS. "The Batwing has guns! The Batmobile has guns!" Suddenly, people are freaking out. "Where's Batman's no-kill code?!" All this hoopla about the Batman killing. No problem if any of the Avengers kills. They've offed scores of bad guys. Batman? No way. Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel was an unforgivable sin for some people.
So I guess there IS some overlap between comics-canon and film-canon, but people exercise their right to apply it selectively.
It boils down to bias, of course.
People have always been darkly sure that Batman has probably killed somebody at some point. That wasn't shocking news. Except for the inanity of the 60s Batman, he's always been a dark enough character to imagine that he'd dropped someone off a building and not looked back...but he's just a man, and there has always been the chance that someone might kill him.
Superman, by virtue of being essentially a god, always needed more moral restraint as a plot device, kind of like Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics."
I agree in regards to the Batman film having a new villain. I just meant I would have preferred seeing this incarnation of the Joker first in a standalone Batman film. I would actually love to see Black Mask (he's never been done) or Poision Ivy (B&R didn't do her justice). So I do agree it would be nice to see another villain in the first Batman standalone film, kind of like how Joker didn't appear until the sequel of Nolan's trilogy.
Black Mask, Ivy (done right), Hush, The Creeper (hey, he could work), I agree. Nolan gave us Bane in lieu of Riddler, who the studio wanted. I was grateful for that. I don't want to see Bane again anytime soon. I never thought I'd get to see Deadshot on film, and now we have him. He'll be back.
Rumors suggest the next movie will use Arkham Asylum as its central setting, so we'll likely see a lot of great Batman rogues.
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Originally Posted by UrbanCheetah
Spiderman being wedged in there though was well done. For most people that was one of the highlights for of the film, a very popular and positively reviewed film....The timing for it was right. You see with Spiderman being pushed in, you were fed good character development for the short time he was on. We go to see him and where he lives, why he is doing what he is doing, a good sense of his morals, and then we see him in action very faithful to his character. Marvel gave us a nice piece of meat to chew on and digest, while not being to heavy, but enough to satisfy.
I'll tell you why most people didn't mind: because, like Batman and Superman, his origin is very familiar. It's well-known. There's nothing to explain. His origin won't change. It's the same one from the comics, and the one we've seen onscreen several times. So there's really nothing to explain.
People just wanted Spidey in the MCU. They also want the FF and the X-Men, but that's not going to be as easy.
Civil War's a standard crowd-pleaser, but IMO it's too predictable. Too many contrivances. The Winter Soldier's a better movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanCheetah
You can't say that is the same for the Suicide Squad. For example one of the highlights, Harley, we didn't really get to learn that much about her personality or who she was before the Joker made her insane. Why did she fall in love with him? What were the things that the Joker did and said to manipulate her? All we got were flashbacks of her that were super fragmented, and didn't give us good insight to how she things, who she is, and what we can expect. With that being said she wasn't terrible in the movie, she was a highlight, but her story felt so chopped up with no rhyme or reason.
We saw plenty of her. We got more of Harley than we got of Black Panther in Civil War. But to paraphrase what Mark said about Black Panther, we'll have to wait for her movie for more Harley.
That's just what MCU is planning, though. There won't be any more specific movies for the Avengers (except maybe Black Widow)--they are being gracefully retired over the course of another two movies or so, and the next cycle of new characters is beginning over that same course of transitional movies.
DCEU is started late on power curve on a program that just can't be short-cut. It's like one man planting an apple tree in 2008 and harvesting apples in 1216, and another guy planting an apple tree in 2013...also expecting a harvest in 2016. Sorry, it doesn't work that way--apple trees take a certain length of time to mature.
The same seems to be true of superhero movie universes...it doesn't appear the process can be successfully rushed. The DCEU producers should have been satisfied with a program that would have started with Superman in 2013 and peaked with Justice League in about 2020.
I hope you mean 2016
But yeah I completely agree. That is the biggest problem, it's all too rushed. Suicide Square and BvS were perfect examples of this. It's makes the story very choppy, takes away from character development, and makes the team ups a little less exciting. For example seeing characters in their standalone movies, it's fun and exciting to think, I wonder how Iron Man will get a long with Thor? Or will Iron Man and Captain America butt heads? Because you get to know these characters individually you look forward to see how they will interact and fight side by side in the team up movies.
With DCEU you are not getting that. You are getting it shoved in your face before you can really get to know anybody.
The DCEU producers should have been satisfied with a program that would have started with Superman in 2013 and peaked with Justice League in about 2020.
Why a 7-year gap?
Superman and Batman are so familiar, that's unnecessary. Both characters have been successfully established via two movies.
A third movie gave us some great Batman and Flash rogues — most are new to the silver screen.
A fourth movie will be Wonder Woman's origin film.
The fifth movie, four years later, will be the team film.
Same time duration from Iron Man to Marvel's The Avengers. Also, Iron Man 2 introduced Black Widow, who was unknown to general audiences.
Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman will be joined by Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg. Of these characters, only Cyborg is less known to non-readers and followers of the DCAU. All those other characters range from fairly well-known to instantly recognizable, far more so than the MCU's roster before 2008-2010.
With DCEU you are not getting that. You are getting it shoved in your face before you can really get to know anybody.
Captain America hadn't been in a movie since 1990. Thor had never been in a movie, nor had Iron Man (not counting the animated film). You needed standalone films for those characters. There was no way around it.
Superman and Batman are familiar faces, like Spider-Man (reintroduced this year without a standalone). Wonder Woman's movie...comin' up!
Black Mask, Ivy (done right), Hush, The Creeper (hey, he could work), I agree. Nolan gave us Bane in lieu of Riddler, who the studio wanted. I was grateful for that. I don't want to see Bane again anytime soon. I never thought I'd get to see Deadshot on film, and now we have him. He'll be back.
Rumors suggest the next movie will use Arkham Asylum as its central setting, so we'll likely see a lot of great Batman rogues.
I'll tell you why most people didn't mind: because, like Batman and Superman, his origin is very familiar. It's well-known. There's nothing to explain. His origin won't change. It's the same one from the comics, and the one we've seen onscreen several times. So there's really nothing to explain.
People just wanted Spidey in the MCU. They also want the FF and the X-Men, but that's not going to be as easy.
Civil War's a standard crowd-pleaser, but IMO it's too predictable. Too many contrivances. The Winter Soldier's a better movie.
We saw plenty of her. We got more of Harley than we got of Black Panther in Civil War. But to paraphrase what Mark said about Black Panther, we'll have to wait for her movie for more Harley.
So why was it necessary to show Batman's origin (his parents dying) in BvS? Why was it necessary to have Man of Steel then? If that's your argument then DC is doing it wrong and MCU is doing it right. Based on your logic Spiderman's intro in Civil War was done more intelligently and strategically, while Superman in Man of Steel and Batman's in BvS was just wasting the audiences time, right?
In regards to Black Panther there is no way that Harley got better development than he did. Black Panther had a pretty good arc in Civil War. He is a prince, who has a good relationship with his father, the king, where his father is killed, so he seeks to get vengeance only he is misinformed by it. Which then makes him join a side of the Avengers too seek that vengeance, only for him to find out in the end he was wrong all along on what happened. Which leads him to help save the day. After the realization of him being wrong he decides to then help the people he thought were his foes and by helping hide and protect the Winter Soldier.
Harley's story? Let's see, in the present time she is in jail, gets freed by the Amanda Waller to be part of the Suicide Squad. When she is with the group, she tries to escape with the Joker, but that fails, so she rejoins the team to fight Enchantress and Incubus. In her flashbacks, it starts off with her basically just being lobotomized by the Joker, her deciding to throw herself in the acid chemical bath, and then dance at a nightclub only to be rejected and to then escape and be trapped in car underwater and then have Batman rescue her. And we get one scene of what she would like to have in the future in regards to her life. They did a real **** poor job of developing her character, part of it is due to editing.
Sorry but one story is super choppy and the other isn't. One has a good story arc the other one is all over place. Harley might have stood out more and was more of a highlight in her film than Black Panther was in in Civil War, however, Black Panther was handled so much better in regards to storytelling and character development than Harley was.
Superman and Batman are so familiar, that's unnecessary. Both characters have been successfully established via two movies.
A third movie gave us some great Batman and Flash rogues — most are new to the silver screen.
A fourth movie will be Wonder Woman's origin film.
The fifth movie, four years later, will be the team film.
Same time duration from Iron Man to Marvel's The Avengers. Also, Iron Man 2 introduced Black Widow, who was unknown to general audiences.
Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman will be joined by Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg. Of these characters, only Cyborg is less known to non-readers and followers of the DCAU. All those other characters range from fairly well-known to instantly recognizable, far more so than the MCU's roster before 2008-2010.
I can't wait for Justice League.
Really only Batman has been recently known to movie audiences as roughly the same character as presented in SvB.
The Flash they've shown us is substantially different even from the CW Flash, as has been the new Superman, as will be the new Wonder Woman, as will be the new Aquaman. These are all essentially brand new characters, and having the same names is not a plus, it's something that has to be overcome.
For some of them, the make-over will be heartily welcomed: Aquaman...the general audience remembrance of Aquaman is going to be from those incredibly inane cartoons from the 70s.
Wonder Woman has been similarly cartoonish in the minds of the general audience, but at least we're going to be lightyears beyond her original character:
On top of that, I think Harley could have been better developed if it was the Joker who was the main villain. The Suicide Square goes to fight the Joker cause he is doing whatever. Because her explosive is deactivated, she then runs to the Joker's side to help them fight the Suicide Squad. Once the Joker starts treating her like crap and gets physically abusive towards her, she realizes the mistake she made and in the climax, is the key to stopping the Joker.
To me that would have been a good way of developing her character more, that shows her struggles with the Joker, and how conflicted she can get.
On top of that, I think Harley could have been better developed if it was the Joker who was the main villain. The Suicide Square goes to fight the Joker cause he is doing whatever. Because her explosive is deactivated, she then runs to the Joker's side to help them fight the Suicide Squad. Once the Joker starts treating her like crap and gets physically abusive towards her, she realizes the mistake she made and in the climax, is the key to stopping the Joker.
To me that would have been a good way of developing her character more, that shows her struggles with the Joker, and how conflicted she can get.
That's why this movie should really have just been a live action "Assault on Arkham."
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