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If you're heading toward the cliff, keeping on keeping on isn't progress either.
Let DC remake Iron Man 3 and Ant-Man scene for scene with a DC character. Watch the movie be savaged by critics and podgeeks just the same.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
It isn't that WB tried to please the critics. It isn't that WB tried to please fans. It is that WB doesn't seem to have a direction or overall plan, other than large special effects budgets. And with very few exceptions, they keep producing screenplays that seemingly have no clue on how to build character and build up a plot. To be fair, they aren't alone in this. The current train wreck of the STAR TREK movies is doing the same thing.
There was indeed a plan. It was derailed when WB got cold feet about building a universe with a darker tone and darker themes than Marvel's. They should have kept going with the two-part Justice League saga where the team got their asses kicked in Part One and then brought in Superman for the battle with Darkseid in Part Two. Fox didn't cave when X-Men: First Class failed to be a moneymaker. They greenlit Days of Future Past (which made money but still didn't land where everyone expected it). Then Apocalypse underperformed. Their next move? Dark Phoenix. You just keep going. A two-movie cycle (Class/Past) managed to introduce new characters and soft-boot their narrative.
And with Justice League, you're still right. Certain somebodies wanted the movie completed so they could get their year-end bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
And because he has a silly name. What? The Penny Plunderer and the Condiment King were holding out for too much money? Oo! O how about Egghead? True, it would be hard to fill Vincent Price's skullcap, but with WB's budget, I'm sure they could find someone. Benedict Cumberbatch maybe?
Ridiculing a character's name when I heard nobody else complain about him doesn't exactly qualify as a point of contention. The villain in Ant-Man & The Wasp is Ghost. How generic is that? Do you give that name your wholesale stamp of approval?
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
Seemingly no one at WB. Their movie-making plan is largely something like this:
That would suggest there was no endgame when there was. They wanted a movie completed on time so they'd receive their year-end bonuses.
That was their endgame. But those guys have been replaced. Let's hope the new guy in charge isn't the same way.
Let DC remake Iron Man 3 and Ant-Man scene for scene with a DC character. Watch the movie be savaged by critics and podgeeks just the same.
Some day, if we all work together and try really hard, you will be able to judge DC movies on their own merits rather than constantly comparing them to Marvel movies. Marvel may make the worst movie of all time in a year two. It won't make DC movies any better.
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Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
There was indeed a plan.
I have seen no evidence of it onscreen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
It was derailed when WB got cold feet about building a universe with a darker tone and darker themes than Marvel's. They should have kept going with the two-part Justice League saga where the team got their asses kicked in Part One and then brought in Superman for the battle with Darkseid in Part Two.
If that was the plan, then that indeed is a dumbass plan, and exactly what I meant by having no clue how to build a character and build up plot.
One reason the Marvel universe worked so well is that they took the time to build the characters first, then brought them into a movie, then gradually raised the stakes. You build the foundation, then the walls, then the roof, then you paint and furnish. Following my metaphor, DC gives no thought to the actual construction but want the finest furnishings for their pile of wood. (Wonder Woman being a notable exception.)
This is exactly why the STAR TREK movies have failed, because they misunderstood this principal. In Wrath of Khan, there was a reason people cried when Spock died. The story was built upon the characters' decades of friendship. Their sacrifices for one another had weight, because the story had spent years letting us get to know them.
His second movie in, and DC already kills Superman. Batman starts the movie in middle age. The heroes are already joining to save the entire planet when they haven't even yet discovered themselves. We don't care who wins or loses because we don't care about the characters. It's like watching a really loud video game.
Think of it like this: The climax (in both senses of that word) is SO MUCH BETTER after great foreplay. DC doesn't understand this.
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Originally Posted by AFtrEFkt
The villain in Ant-Man & The Wasp is Ghost. How generic is that? Do you give that name your wholesale stamp of approval?
Pretty generic. But it's not outright silly. Now a name like Steppengeist or Stadtgeist? That would be silly --- unless the villain were a German ghost haunting the steppes or city streets of Germany. Or maybe since ants and wasps are both insects, he should be the Fearsome Fehlergeist!
Let DC remake Iron Man 3 and Ant-Man scene for scene with a DC character. Watch the movie be savaged by critics and podgeeks just the same.
That would suggest there was no endgame when there was. They wanted a movie completed on time so they'd receive their year-end bonuses.
That was their endgame. But those guys have been replaced. Let's hope the new guy in charge isn't the same way.
That was the point I was making in my earlier post when I suggested DC take a break and re-brand when this era of superhero movies die down. You disagreed and called, which is fine (DC could care less about my opinion).
The point that I was trying to make, which you ignored, was that it seems like no matter what DC does, it doesn’t achieve the same acclaim or fan support at the box office as Marvel. Like you mention, if DC made a movie that was scene for scene identical to a Marvel movie, the Marvel movie would probably be acclaimed and the exact same DC movie would probably be criticized.
Not that I think that is fair or right, but it’s just the way it is now. That’s where I was coming from. I don’t really think DC is going to hold off on making movies.
You are forgetting the force multiplier of being part of 18 films. If you did beat for beat that Ant-Man did you don't have those little references to the Stark's and SHIELD which make the show more enjoyable. But as with pop culture YMMV. Ant-Man in the post Black Panther list is number 3 in my MCU rankings. Things shift for my entertainment value when you add in more content from additional movies and the associated TV series.
That was the point I was making in my earlier post when I suggested DC take a break and re-brand when this era of superhero movies die down. You disagreed and called, which is fine (DC could care less about my opinion).
The point that I was trying to make, which you ignored, was that it seems like no matter what DC does, it doesn’t achieve the same acclaim or fan support at the box office as Marvel. Like you mention, if DC made a movie that was scene for scene identical to a Marvel movie, the Marvel movie would probably be acclaimed and the exact same DC movie would probably be criticized.
Not that I think that is fair or right, but it’s just the way it is now. That’s where I was coming from. I don’t really think DC is going to hold off on making movies.
I didn't ignore your point which you were indeed "trying" to make. There's no reason to address that with somebody who follows the now accepted norm of "Marvel good, DC bad." Marvel's bad movies still garner some kind of acclaim. It's a trend. Even Wonder Woman is being called "overrated" because of how well it did.
It's been said that if Zack Snyder's name had been completely absent from Justice League from the get-go, and it had been released as is, 119-minute running time and all, it would have been hailed as a moderate "comeback" under the helm of Joss Whedon. Now that I do believe, because the hate is so rampant that some people are simply unable to counter their fury from the comfort of their Serta chairs.
And again, what is the point of ceasing production of your CBMs completely? For what? This "era" of superhero films isn't dying down. In fact, as long as CBMs are successful, they'll continue to be made by whomever. For me, that's a win-win, because I go and see all these movies. The only ones I missed in theaters are X-Men: Apocalypse (no rush) and the first Guardians (just didn't get to it with my crazy schedule). I also skipped the first two Wolverine outings because I was done with the mutant franchise at that point. But I'm looking forward to Dark Phoenix. I just hope they didn't fiddle with it too much because the first test screening didn't bowl over the audience.
Some day, if we all work together and try really hard, you will be able to judge DC movies on their own merits rather than constantly comparing them to Marvel movies. Marvel may make the worst movie of all time in a year two. It won't make DC movies any better.
That's coming from the guy who never misses an opportunity to link a fourth-generation anti-DC clickbait "article" from a cheesy blogsite.
All these movies get compared now. That's the way the river flows, Joe.
You are forgetting the force multiplier of being part of 18 films. If you did beat for beat that Ant-Man did you don't have those little references to the Stark's and SHIELD which make the show more enjoyable. But as with pop culture YMMV. Ant-Man in the post Black Panther list is number 3 in my MCU rankings. Things shift for my entertainment value when you add in more content from additional movies and the associated TV series.
Same difference. If you have Cyborg flying headlong into S.T.A.R. Labs and Blue Beetle comes out to fight him in that scene only, yadda, yadda. An Easter egg is an Easter egg is an Easter egg.
The comics industry got gobbled up by the movie industry during the later phase of media consolidation during the turn of the century.
There were a heck of a lot of complaints from comic fans that the comics themselves were being watered down to appeal to the mainstream movie audience, something the new Powrs That Be in the comics industry did not deny.
My own perspective is that variety is the spice of life. As I said before look at the cast, characters & story-lines from the original Star Trek to the ST: TNG & DS9 reboots. If it was up to the so called mainstream, that treasure trove WOULD NEVER HAVE EXISTED. The reboots went on a station that was not yet mainstream & did exceedingly well, Voyager which went more in a mainstream did not fare as well & Enterprise (which was more mainstream oriented) fared even less well. The station that the 1st 2 reboots also had Xena & Buffy (again casts, characters & story-lines that would never have existed if it was up to a mainstream popularity contest). Look at how Highlander the Series was sabotaged.
That's why IMHO the best sci-fi (fantasy, science fiction, horror, etc) did not have all the pop paparazzi, blood money nor mainstream acclaim or even acknowledgement AND THAT'S A GOOD THING.
Look at the scandals & controversies about things some (again not all since the sci-fi people come from the general society as well) has already been doing for years & decades.
Why assimilate to the mainstream?
Let them & their ilk have their dopers/cheaters, talk shows & what not.
There are different genres for a reason, despite all the globalist propaganda.
Let DC remake Iron Man 3 and Ant-Man scene for scene with a DC character. Watch the movie be savaged by critics and podgeeks just the same.
That would suggest that both audiences and critics (in particular, Rotten Tomatoes, who's parent company is partially owned by Warner Bros) are conspiring against DC films. Is that easier to believe than mismanagement behind the scenes and the resulting bad product?
RT score: Film: Box Office
84%: Batman Begins (2005): $372mil
75%: Superman Returns (2006): $391mil
94%: The Dark Knight (2008): $1.003billion
87%: The Dark Knight Rises (2012): $1.084billion
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Marvel may make the worst movie of all time in a year two. It won't make DC movies any better. 
