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Old 05-21-2018, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,851 posts, read 5,767,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
China is not the world, and who really cares if a movie does well in China?

Lots of American films are not even allowed in China due to censorship.

Products, films, and companies can be very profitable despite having limited access to the Chinese marketplace (Google, Facebook, most social media companies).
I agree with you, but if you look at the Black Panther thread, you will see page after page where people were obsessed with how BP would do in China. They mention that it was culturally significant to determine how a majority-Black cast does in China, based on past history. I agree with you, and mentioned at the time how I didn’t see understand why China was being used as some kind of justification/barometer of the overall success of Black Panther. However, I’m not black, and if you go to that thread and read all the pages dedicated to the anticipation and holding breath for how BP would do in China, it’s obvious that for black people (at least the ones on here), that its success there was very important to them.

As a white person, I thought BP already proved its success, regardless of how it did in China, but I don’t have the same perspective.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Sequoia Heights, Oakland, CA
406 posts, read 286,856 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Taylor View Post
Hmmm. Well, I don't know why people keep saying that... Because when I researched that topic, I found this:
my sentiments exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Taylor View Post
But according to daily tracking, it goes back and forth from BP to AIW. But on AIW's 24th day compared to BP's 24th day, AIW is leading with $595,032,959 compared to BP's $561,697,180:

MCU Top Openers/BY DAY NUMBER
True, but AIW is leading because its front-loaded. Much of its demand came in early weeks. Eventually, AIW will fall behind in totals because its seeing bigger drops.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:46 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
I agree with you, but if you look at the Black Panther thread, you will see page after page where people were obsessed with how BP would do in China. They mention that it was culturally significant to determine how a majority-Black cast does in China, based on past history. I agree with you, and mentioned at the time how I didn’t see understand why China was being used as some kind of justification/barometer of the overall success of Black Panther. However, I’m not black, and if you go to that thread and read all the pages dedicated to the anticipation and holding breath for how BP would do in China, it’s obvious that for black people (at least the ones on here), that its success there was very important to them.

As a white person, I thought BP already proved its success, regardless of how it did in China, but I don’t have the same perspective.
I was interested in how BP would do in China primarily because it had soared above my expectations in the US and the rest of the world, including South Korea.

My expectation was that it still wouldn't do as well in China, but inasmuch as I'm still not sure why it did as well as it did anywhere else, I couldn't be quite certain lighting wouldn't strike in China as well. But it didn't; the China box office was what I expected all along--that was not the surprise to me that the phenomenon in the rest of the world had been.

I still think a major reason it didn't do as well in China was that there was so much political tone to the story and that it was not pure action, but it would take some detailed study to suss that out.

(Being an old guy, in terms of cultural significance I got a lot more out of Shaft, In the Heat of the Night, and Once Upon a Time...When We Were Colored. That last movie paralleled my own childhood so closely I could put names on the characters of people I'd actually known.
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Maine
22,831 posts, read 28,052,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I still think a major reason it didn't do as well in China was that there was so much political tone to the story and that it was not pure action, but it would take some detailed study to suss that out.
In name, China is still a communist country. In practice? No. But that is still the ideology preached.

BLACK PANTHER is a story about a hereditary monarch who has to depose a populist usurper. Its politics are actually very conservative (in the old sense of the word).

Which is actually what I thought was BLACK PANTHER's single biggest missed opportunity: They immediately turned Killmonger into a thug tyrant, slapping old women around and abusing his advisors. He did everything but tie Shuri to the railroad tracks and cackle while twirling his mustache. It would have been A LOT more interesting to have Killmonger actually trying to do the right thing. Have him taking the wrong actions for the right reasons. More Magneto, less Hitler.. Then much of the conflict would have been about the people of Wakanda having to decide between their flawed monarch who has made some very serious mistakes, to a populist usurper who seems to intend to do some good in his own warped way.

But I supposed that would have been too deep for a movie that just wanted another car chase and fight scene.
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Old 05-21-2018, 03:47 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
In name, China is still a communist country. In practice? No. But that is still the ideology preached.
Umm...a democracy it is not. Remember "communism" is an economic system. As a political system, China is still totalitarian.

Quote:
BLACK PANTHER is a story about a hereditary monarch who has to depose a populist usurper. Its politics are actually very conservative (in the old sense of the word).
It's not a matter of what specific politics that might have been discussed in Black Panther, it's a matter of it being political where being political is not encouraged.

Quote:
Which is actually what I thought was BLACK PANTHER's single biggest missed opportunity: They immediately turned Killmonger into a thug tyrant, slapping old women around and abusing his advisors. He did everything but tie Shuri to the railroad tracks and cackle while twirling his mustache. It would have been A LOT more interesting to have Killmonger actually trying to do the right thing. Have him taking the wrong actions for the right reasons. More Magneto, less Hitler.. Then much of the conflict would have been about the people of Wakanda having to decide between their flawed monarch who has made some very serious mistakes, to a populist usurper who seems to intend to do some good in his own warped way.
That would have presented a quandary for Nakia, even.

I said a long time ago that it really didn't make sense for Killmonger to have been as viscious as he was. Most kids growing up in that neighborhood don't become that vicious, even if their fathers had been killed by criminals. In fact, none of them become that vicious.

It would have made more sense for Killmonger to have just bought a plane ticket to Wakanda right after being graduated from MIT and presented his credentials as a member of the royal family. Then he'd steal Nakia's heart with his point of view, charm T'Challa's mother, and gain what influence (if not rule--trial by combat is still absurd for such an advanced nation) he needed by more civilized means: Cunning and deceit.

The fact is, ultimately they still descended to the "thug" stereotype.
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,851 posts, read 5,767,813 times
Reputation: 11467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
In name, China is still a communist country. In practice? No. But that is still the ideology preached.

BLACK PANTHER is a story about a hereditary monarch who has to depose a populist usurper. Its politics are actually very conservative (in the old sense of the word).

Which is actually what I thought was BLACK PANTHER's single biggest missed opportunity: They immediately turned Killmonger into a thug tyrant, slapping old women around and abusing his advisors. He did everything but tie Shuri to the railroad tracks and cackle while twirling his mustache. It would have been A LOT more interesting to have Killmonger actually trying to do the right thing. Have him taking the wrong actions for the right reasons. More Magneto, less Hitler.. Then much of the conflict would have been about the people of Wakanda having to decide between their flawed monarch who has made some very serious mistakes, to a populist usurper who seems to intend to do some good in his own warped way.

But I supposed that would have been too deep for a movie that just wanted another car chase and fight scene.
To try to steer somewhat back on thread topic of Infinity War; I really liked both Thanos and Kilmonger because they did have a reason (at least in their minds) for their actions. Maybe they could have changed Killmonger up a little bit, but he was also raised on the streets, so that is why he had some of the personality that he did. To tie things back to this thread, did you like the portrayal of Thanos in Infinity War as a relatable villain, as far as his motives?
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Maine
22,831 posts, read 28,052,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
To tie things back to this thread, did you like the portrayal of Thanos in Infinity War as a relatable villain, as far as his motives?
I guess. I was never a huge fan of the character, even in comics. I just don't find characters with that much power to be all that interesting.

His motives were warped. He cloaked his tyranny in altruism. Magneto did much the same thing in the first X-MEN movie. Only there, Wolverine basically told him, 'You're full of it. If you really believed your own BS, it would be you making the sacrifice."

Much the same is true of Thanos and real people like him. They're always ready for someone else to make the sacrifice, but they are never first in line --- or even in line.
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Old 05-21-2018, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Sequoia Heights, Oakland, CA
406 posts, read 286,856 times
Reputation: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
I agree with you, but if you look at the Black Panther thread, you will see page after page where people were obsessed with how BP would do in China. They mention that it was culturally significant to determine how a majority-Black cast does in China, based on past history. I agree with you, and mentioned at the time how I didn’t see understand why China was being used as some kind of justification/barometer of the overall success of Black Panther. However, I’m not black, and if you go to that thread and read all the pages dedicated to the anticipation and holding breath for how BP would do in China, it’s obvious that for black people (at least the ones on here), that its success there was very important to them.

As a white person, I thought BP already proved its success, regardless of how it did in China, but I don’t have the same perspective.
I'm not sure why you maintain that black people were seeking validation from China. At best, that's a simplistic and incomplete conclusion. It's about shattering a glass ceiling.

Conventional wisdom in Hollywood says that the overseas market has an insatiable appetite for American-made blockbusters, especially in the growing Asian markets (Hi China!). Therefore, studios aim to have at least 60% of box office revenues come from foreign markets (leave no money on the table). So in this sense, it's not unique for someone championing Black Panther to also want the film to be successful overseas.

With that said, conventional wisdom in Hollywood also says that black films are box office poison: Big budget "black" movies aren't profitable, do not have wide appeal outside of black audiences, and do not travel overseas. So when Black Panther breaks records market after market, people are curious to see how well it does in the second largest market. It's acknowledgement of a glass ceiling.

Last edited by the happy guy; 05-21-2018 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:21 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
To try to steer somewhat back on thread topic of Infinity War; I really liked both Thanos and Kilmonger because they did have a reason (at least in their minds) for their actions. Maybe they could have changed Killmonger up a little bit, but he was also raised on the streets, so that is why he had some of the personality that he did.
Lots of kids "raised on the streets," so to speak. The vast majority do not become psychopathic mass murderers. He's not far from Lex Luthor becoming Superman's arch enemy just because he lost his hair. That was just a fallback on a stereotype.

To tie things back to this thread, did you like the portrayal of Thanos in Infinity War as a relatable villain, as far as his motives?[/quote]

I think Thanos motives sucked, but they did a good job of characterization by putting him on the classic "hero's journey" plotline, an unusual thing for the handling of the villain of the story.
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,272 posts, read 7,978,924 times
Reputation: 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by the happy guy View Post
I'm not sure why you maintain that black people were seeking validation from China. At best, that's a simplistic and incomplete conclusion. It's about shattering a glass ceiling.

Conventional wisdom in Hollywood says that the overseas market has an insatiable appetite for American-made blockbusters, especially in the growing Asian markets (Hi China!). Therefore, studios aim to have at least 60% of box office revenues come from foreign markets (leave no money on the table). So in this sense, it's not unique for someone championing Black Panther to also want the film to be successful overseas.

With that said, conventional wisdom in Hollywood also says that black films are box office poison: Big budget "black" movies aren't profitable, do not have wide appeal outside of black audiences, and do not travel overseas. So when Black Panther breaks records market after market, people are curious to see how well it does in the second largest market. It's acknowledgement of a glass ceiling.

So with a great enough success of Black Panther the expectation that no big name movie maker will ever say again that people of European heritage had to play Egyptians or a Tolkien white had to be the lead of a film to insure a return on investment from the "global market". An its not us, we are not prejudiced, but we have to because of them argument.

Now why China and most Asia would have been thought to be on the wrong side of history when westerners would accept faces with African features in the lead is a political debate.
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