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Because of our stupid legislature we can't have a "regional plan".
Because of those that line the legislator's pockets...
Jethro from Possum Jump isn't going to care about a local tax increase for Nashville until somebody that doesn't want this starts donating to his campaign. Whether that be an individual or a "grassroots" organization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus
This is a regional plan but the first step is Nashville approving it. Once that happens the surrounding counties also have plans and they'll be voted on.
I realize that this is part of a larger plan (that has been in the works for decades) -- but as difficult as it will be for Nashville to pass their plan, the surrounding counties will be even more so. Even if some of the politicians support it/are agreeable with it, ultimately there will be a huge fuss over some combination of increase in taxes, "no one will use it," "it's wasteful spending," something about making it easier for dangerous criminals from Nashville being able to get easy access to their town/neighborhood, etc.
I'm going to guess the order of counties that are likely to approve regional transit:
1) Rutherford
2) Wilson
3) Sumner
4) Montgomery
5) Maury
6) Dickson
7) Robertson
8) Cheatham
9) Marshall
10) Smith
11) Williamson
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus
You can fix the interstates until you have a way to transport people once they are in town. What good does it do to take the Music City Star in, if you can't then quickly get to Vanderbilt, the HCA campus, etc?
Precisely. And while we do have a bus system, I think that a heavier backbone (like light rail or even BRT) is necessary if this is going to work on a larger scale.
My worry is that we'll get a watered-down version that still ends up costing a lot of money, but ends up being ineffective because of it's limitations.
I've had to go to Nashville several times in the past year, some during the week, others on the weekends.
As a nonresident, the traffic, especially on 440 and on 65 during rush hour, is absolutely maddening. I think part of the problem, and I may be completely off here, is that Nashville does not have a true beltway around it. Everyone basically gets funneled through the areas that are already going to be heavily congested, compounding the congestion further.
Some sort of getting the ball rolling needs to occur. Traffic in Nashville is already severe for the size of city it is. As it grows, it is going to become unsustainable mess like Atlanta.
I don't think the regional group has taxing authority. That has to be done on a county by county level.
You are correct. Each municipality is going to have to contribute at some point, especially to get those "first mile, last mile" solutions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation
I think part of the problem, and I may be completely off here, is that Nashville does not have a true beltway around it. Everyone basically gets funneled through the areas that are already going to be heavily congested, compounding the congestion further.
840 is supposed to serve that purpose, but it may be too far out from I-40 to be effective.
TDOT last year initiated an advertising campaign to attract truckers who aren't stopping in Nashville to 840 and keep them out of the Nashville spider web.
You are correct. Each municipality is going to have to contribute at some point, especially to get those "first mile, last mile" solutions.
840 is supposed to serve that purpose, but it may be too far out from I-40 to be effective.
TDOT last year initiated an advertising campaign to attract truckers who aren't stopping in Nashville to 840 and keep them out of the Nashville spider web.
That's not really a beltway. All that really covers is east-west thru-traffic on 40, goes way south of the city, appears quite out of the way, and may even be slower than just going through town outside of rush hour. I took this the last time I went to Franklin, and it was fine.
A big part of the problem is that 65/24 thru-traffic is getting mixed in with all the people that have to be in the more congested urban areas as it is. I used to live in Indianapolis. Indianapolis largely avoids the problem, despite being historically more populated than Nashville, with the 465 beltway. Someone driving from Nashville to Chicago or eastbound from Ohio toward Illinois doesn't have to get mixed in with local I-70 and I-65 traffic heading into the urban core.
I've dealt with unexpectedly heavy congestion every time I've been in Nashville, especially so at peak hours. I don't see how another million cars on the already clogged roads will be sustainable without some alternate way for people to get around.
That's not really a beltway. All that really covers is east-west thru-traffic on 40, goes way south of the city, appears quite out of the way, and may even be slower than just going through town outside of rush hour. I took this the last time I went to Franklin, and it was fine.
A big part of the problem is that 65/24 thru-traffic is getting mixed in with all the people that have to be in the more congested urban areas as it is. I used to live in Indianapolis. Indianapolis largely avoids the problem, despite being historically more populated than Nashville, with the 465 beltway. Someone driving from Nashville to Chicago or eastbound from Ohio toward Illinois doesn't have to get mixed in with local I-70 and I-65 traffic heading into the urban core.
I've dealt with unexpectedly heavy congestion every time I've been in Nashville, especially so at peak hours. I don't see how another million cars on the already clogged roads will be sustainable without some alternate way for people to get around.
A "real" beltway should be somewhere near Old Hickory Bvd in terms of distance from the city core.
[Greater] Nashville's traffic problems go way deeper than what a $9B transit plan would solve. As one whose job involves being out and about in this mess on a daily basis, most of the issues can be traced to two words:
CHOKE POINTS.
Seriously--look at the freeway map. You have no less than EIGHT choke points just within the county proper itself: four on the downtoen loop--one at each corner; a major boondoggle of two on the east end of 440; the 24/65 split north of downtown, and then that mess of a southern terminus of Ellington Pkwy @ Spring Street. (There are additional ones at each end of Briley Parkway, as well as Briley @ 24 and @ 65.) And most of these choke points all occur inside of two miles from each other, many within 1.5 miles--meaning a WHOLE LOT of crossing traffic. With the increasing amount of people moving into this area, that's even more vehicles trying to navigate through all those various choke points. Add in the passers-though and a localized mess turns into an even more complex mess. And lest we forget, 40 and 65 are two of the heaviest-traveled transcontinental roadways in this country; 24 is a primary southeast-to-Midwest conduit as well. All of them pass through here, meaning that many more passers-through who are not familiar with the traffic patterns and as such may not know when to be in what lane to go what way--which itself is another problem but I'll take that for now, for them; that said, those who DO LIVE HERE, know what lanes go where and yet still wait til the absolute last second to zip across three and four if not five lanes to take an exit, thus endangering themselves and everyone else on the road, for them there is ZERO excuse. (And people wonder why I call this place "Crashville, Finnassee"--hang around long enough and you SHO' finna see a crash!)
And all that's just at the freeway level--but even with that there are problems. Start with 24 westbound...four exit/entry-ramps inside a quarter mile (Shelby St. has two entry ramps, Ellington exit AND James Robertson exit/entryway are all right there together, then Jefferson St about 3/4 mile further up, making for five inside one mile. That's asking for problems. Some of those exits should be eliminated to relieve some of that (the second Shelby exit really should be taken out--its already hard enough to see the on-ramp as it is as you approach the overpass).
Now let's flip to 24 eastbound...Spring Street/Ellingtom isn't too big an issue; but that daggone Jefferson Street barely 100-foot entry ramp that also serves as the exit to James Robertson--I don't know how that interchange still exists! That's noehwere close to enough room for the trucks coming out of that TA to even get any speed, let alone the hairpin hook it takes to even get up the entry ramp from Spring Street to begin with. That creates traffic snarl. And that again is three exits/entries inside a quarter mile. Thankfully the Korean Vet exit is a little further out but not by much. Over on the 40 side between 65 south and the 40/24 split...there's an entry ramp that enters each side RIGHT AT THE SPLIT, and even though there are signs saying "NO ENTRY TO 24 WESTBOUND/NO ENTRY TO 65 SOUTHBOUND", everyday I see people still crossing all those lanes to do so. Those entry lanes can be eliminated.
I really don't even want to dedicate any time to the 440/24/40/Murfreesboro Rd/Spence Lane boondoggle except to say that thst entire section needs to be reworked (and I wouldn't be mad if they tore 440 out completely but that's another discussion). But talking about choke points...that entry from 65 north to 440 in either direction but particularly eastbound...you have two entry lanes (the one from 65 south and the one from 65 north) merging into one lane...which then merge into yet another lane of the main freeway, essentially two choke points in one. That interchange probably better than any other illustrates the problem with the freeway network as designed and constructed--it was idiotic to begin with and this is the snarl that's resulted. Choke points. Gotta get cooking on a way to solve those issues.
Let's take it on down to the surface streets, now...because the same problem exists there. (I actually got my hands on some old street maps from the 1920s, '30s, '40s, '50s and '60s of the Nashville area--this issue of choke points existed even back then. Check the southwest corridor--TN-100 and US-70 merge up down in Bellevue. It was designed that way even back then.) The roads were poorly designed well before many of us were even thought of. And while I acknowledge part of that is due to topography, I also happen to know that other hilly places have come up with much better solutions. The entire metro seems to have been laid out on a radial hub-and-spoke pattern from downtown. Might have been cool back then...but look at the issues that have developed since then. And all that's to say nothing of the fact that many of the main pikes have no center turning lanes, so if someone needs to make a left turn, that just held up everyone else behind them, in essence creating an ad hoc choke point. And being that most of the roads around herr have no shoulders or sidewalks, that doesn't bode well for pedestrians either. (I can't count the number of times I've nearly been run down just walking from the bus stop to my job--that was from Murfreesboro @ Fesslers Lane back to Visco Drive and back...did that on foot and bike for nearly three years.)
And since we're talking about surface streets...here's another BIG issue I've noticed in the almost four years I've been living here: these traffic light cycles need to be reprogrammed (and the signals themselves replaced). Its bad enough none of them are synced with each other (which is nowhere more apparent than on Gallatin Pike @ 45/Old Hickory Blvd...one turns green, the other stays red but by the time the first turns green the other turns red; thus traffic really doesn't go anywhere. Actually there's really no good reason to have two lights stacked up on each other like that anyway--that intersection desperately needs reworked. And in sure there are plenty others around here for which that could be said.) And since we're on the topic of traffic lights...the current pattern of "this side gets all greens, including left turns, then left turn gets red while through traffic gets green then gets red while now the other side gets green left turn for a few seconds then they get red" also is a problem, in that that cycle simply just takes longer rather than giving both turning lanes green at the same time, then the "left turn yield" while the through lanes get their green. If nothing else that helps get left-turn traffic moving and prevents them being held up by a red even when they have the clearance to safely execute their left turn. As it is, its stupid and since the signals aren't even synced it just creates a snarled mess. (& I'm well aware of the "Easter egg" cleverly snuck into the transit plan to sync the traffic lights as a way of persuading voters to say yes to it--but I ain't buying it. That can and should be done independent of any transit plan.) I'll also say this: for this being the "it" city and all that, WHY are there STILL so many old and outdated hanging traffic lights and wooden poles around here? Wanna spend $ wisely? Start upgrading the signals! Affix the lights to hardstand poles (which are also way more wind-resistant) rather than suspended off power lines (some of which hang so low I'm afraid I'll hit one with my trailer sometimes, which can reach 13'6"). And invest in the nice LED lights with blinking yellow left turn yields. (This is prevalent all throughout Kentucky and its a big help--even Indianapolis has figured this out and invested in the upgraded traffic lights and poles. What's up, Nashville Metro Gov't???)
THESE are the kinds of things that need to be wisely spent on well before we start talking about running tracks down middles of pikes. (I got more to say about that too but I'll save it for another time.) Solve the core problems at the root FIRST--upgrade and reprogram the traffic light signals, for God's sake install some actual sidewalks (it ain't hard to build sidewalks over drainage ditches; I've seen it done many other places), and get to redoing the pavement (& doing it RIGHT the FIRST TIME instead of rush job resurfacing which does notbing to solve the underlying roots of the problems), evaluate how and where to eliminate certain freeway entries/exits, quit trying to become the next great sports town for a second and take care of the infrastructure we have before this entire town chokes (there's that word again) on its own growth. And I see it happening inside of five years IF Metro doesn't get serious about this--and do whatever's necessary to get the Federal DOT involved about the freeways (interstates are federal domain after all).
One more thing about choke points, another problem that I see: the many two-left-turn-lane intersections that merge right back into one lane after you've completed the left turn. Choke points. Restricts traffic flow. Need to eliminate those, too--that's also a safety issue with impatient motorists (i won't dignify the dumbness I see many engage in by calling it "driving") recklessly trying to cut in thus cutting people off. (Hermitage Ave off Korean Vets is the best--well worst--example of this that I can think of at the moment. As a matter of fact that whole stretch of road is jacked up, from the Vets bridge to Fesslers. But again another discussion for another day.)
A "real" beltway should be somewhere near Old Hickory Bvd in terms of distance from the city core.
My thoughts exactly. This was a huge mistake on TDOTs part in not making either Old Hickory Boulevard or Briley Parkway true circles around the city. Even much smaller cities have beltways to reduce the blending that occurs. As others mentioned, 840 is nice, but way too far out to be an effective beltway for the city. It is also incomplete, and does nothing for the north metro which is experiencing major growth too.
Possible solutions that will help but likely never happen:
-Completion of 840 north
-Five Lane Sam Ridley connection to McEwen (Smyrna to Franklin)
-Five Lane Old Hickory Boulevard(The first one) to Burkitt, Burkitt to Nolensville Rd, Overpass over Nolensville Rd with connector to Concord Rd (Lavergne to Brentwood)
My thoughts exactly. This was a huge mistake on TDOTs part in not making either Old Hickory Boulevard or Briley Parkway true circles around the city. Even much smaller cities have beltways to reduce the blending that occurs. As others mentioned, 840 is nice, but way too far out to be an effective beltway for the city. It is also incomplete, and does nothing for the north metro which is experiencing major growth too.
Possible solutions that will help but likely never happen:
-Completion of 840 north
-Five Lane Sam Ridley connection to McEwen (Smyrna to Franklin)
-Five Lane Old Hickory Boulevard(The first one) to Burkitt, Burkitt to Nolensville Rd, Overpass over Nolensville Rd with connector to Concord Rd (Lavergne to Brentwood)
I'm not sure of the details on any of these plans, but I think simply widening existing roads will only be a temporary band-aid. Thru-traffic needs some way to get around the city without entering the worst of the mixer in the urban core.
LOL. All I know is if it doesn't pass and Nashville doesn't surmise some other sort of transit solution in the near future they'll be even more screwed in the coming years with the current number of transplants moving to the city. We just moved from Nashville to Chicago suburbs area after being in Nashville for about 6 years. All I can say is I do not miss my congested morning and afternoon commute and what's more I love riding the train in. Nashville would have been much more bearable if they had a somewhat similar rail system. Nashville is much too spread out in general though. I worked in the metro center I doubt a transit plan would have had (or will have) a train which stops near that area. I hope they work something out though for the sake of everyone still there and moving there.
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