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i think i remember seeing a 1.3 or 1.8 billion dollar figure for the first route for charlotte. i think they are currently planning or doing the actual work for a second phase; however, i don't know what the figure will be. when their first cars of the system were being delivered, they came through memphis and made a stop. the cars were really nice and attractive. memphis' bid for its first section for a light rail from the airport to the downtown cbd was around 1.8 billion dollars. that is a distance of about 12 miles. it is not inexpensive at all, and to really be effective for cities involved, they really have to make a true commitment over the long haul. naturally, each city would have to decided how much rail mileage they would be willing to provide to the inner and outer rings. there is so much hostility in the suburbs and memphis proper regarding tax issues at present, i don't know if it would ever work out, even with solving consolidation by metropolitan government.
Not sure how effective the LYNX system is in Charlotte.
I can tell you that when I visited Dallas a couple of years ago and tried the DART rapid transit system there (a limited light rail system), I thought it was pretty pathetic - slow, crowded, infrequent and unpleasant. And that's only a few years old!
I think San Diego and Portland have had better luck with trolley loop type systems. If Nashville were to emulate any other US city with regard to building a limited trolley system, I'd hope we would emulate Portland.
But at least at this point, I still think bikes, buses (including BRT - Bus Rapid Transit) and better sidewalks are the way to go.
Of course, Music City would probably want to improve its downtown bike lanes a bit more to make this work, but it could be a really exciting and viable option for Nashville!
I Think Nashville can benefit form a Small system of Streetcars and a larger network of light Rail , 2 to 3 lines. And Commuter Rail to run along corridors that have seen significant growth. Once you get one line in and running , the whole Metro will show interest. Its only a matter of Time 5-10 years before most of the US Urban centers have Small to Medium Rail networks and High Speed Rail. If you need any ideas for what your networks should model around , look to my state , which has one of the Largest Commuter / Light Rail networks in the US.
No offense intended, Corey, but New Jersey Transit (NJT) is not exactly a fun commuting experience.
I would rather sit in a traffic jam than deal with the crowds and the dirty trains on NJT.
Also, is NJT subsidized in the same way that MTA is in NY?
As for every small-to-medium US city having light rail in 5-10 years, could you provide some examples please? I know of several places where light rail is being built (Dallas, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Portland, San Diego), but that's hardly every city. I've also traveled a lot, and the only two cities I've visited where the trolley / light rail seems to make sense and are enjoyable to ride are San Diego and Portland.
(San Francisco has the cool trolleys, but as far as I can tell, they're mostly for tourists -- which isn't a horrible thing, but isn't the same thing as commuter rail.)
Furthermore, in cities where it is being built, how expensive has it been to build and run? What is the ridership? What is the additional tax burden? What is the time frame for construction?
The problem with rail is that if you build it and it doesn't work very well, no one is going to say - well that was a waste of $1 billion, let's shut it down. Instead they'll say, let's throw in another $1 billion and see if we can make it work better. And then another $1 billion, etc. It is exceedingly rare to find a politician or bureaucrat willing to cut the size of ANY bureaucracy, which is why government is growing so much faster than the private sector. Both grow in good times. The private sector shrinks in bad times (because it has to earn a profit), whereas the government refuses to shrink and just keeps growing and growing...
Also, if NJ rail service (and associated taxation) are so great, why are so many people leaving NJ for TN and other low-tax states with much less rail service?
Whens the last time you rode NJT , ive always gotten clean cars. The Arrows that operate on the NEC line i heard are dirty, NJT is slowly replacing there old fleet , with Newer Cars. The problem with Rail in the US is you have to buy the rights to the line. Which costs millions of Dollars and is a waste to me. I think the Gov, needs to step in a stop this ridiculous process. The Freight Companies need to stop hogging the Rail networks. NJT not a bad agency , compared to the MTA , which is hell. But i think if Nashville does it right , you guys will have a Great network. And i Hope its Expansive. Light Rail is slowly being built in every City , once one city gets it , another sees the benefits and wants it. Streetcars are mainly mean't for small to medium cities. They run with Traffic. Light Rail sometimes runs with Traffic . but mostly runs on separate tracks. Look at NJT Riverline for Diesel , light rail operations and to Newark & Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Networks for Electric Operations. Nashville could start off with Diesel Light Rail in less dense parts and in the dense parts use Electric Light Rail or Commuter.
i understand most of your statements; however, i don't believe that most cities are striving for light rail systems---excessive cost and extreme private business and city business interruptions are other valid points. while i agree that many of the northeast metros, washington dc, and some of the cities in the pacific coastal west, for the most part, has the ridership to justify light rail, most of the cities of the south, southwest, southeast, and midwest do not need these expensive systems.
i say continue w/ these rail systems in the northeast and the like, but forget about how "cool" it looks in the other parts of the united states, where the ridership for these trains exist. it is if cars have suddenly appeared from nowhere, and are causing huge problems leading to sprawl. i don't know if there are those who are paid to post and do commercials for light rail on CD; however, their are subjects such as greenspaces, bike lanes, sidewalks, etc., that have been around for years and years in a majority of cities. they have been called parks, pedestrian sidewalks, etc. all along. they are not knew ideas. in memphis and nashville, i'll keep my car, and be fine. perhaps to some, that doesn't look as "progressive" or "cool." personally, while getting on and off planes, or while watching others do so, for that matter, doesn't impress me in the least. however; i know many who feel as if they are arriving at a grand political event or
the emmys. now the water issue is beginning to really ramp up, as another city issue to settle, w/ the aparent forceful guidance of CD blogs and cheerleaders, moderators---whoever these people represent---i'll just put it that way. but let's remember, only 20% of those cities and areas involved should be allowed to come up w/ solutions for desalination plants, and how they will be paid for and/or subsidized, as i believe san diego has already solved. currently, they can produce over 50 million gallons of fresh drinking water daily from the ocean.
i think that i see a good number of names on this forum that seem to push specific agendas. currently, i am sequencing an adaptive formula to try out an old statistical analysis conclusion. it will be interesting to get the data. both memphis and nashville are too small for light rail, nashville should invest in some long-wheeled based vans for high occupancy lanes on their road system. memphis should keep the trolley and add to it throughout downtown and the medical center. then, larger express busses should be used from the airport, throughout memphis proper, interestate, etc.. as for charlotte, it will have to bear the consequences of its decisions; however, it, as a city, has a right to make the say.
Actually, I've been thinking it would make sense for Nashville to have *smaller* buses (vans?) on some routes...
I keep passing full-size buses -- sometimes even articulated double buses - with only 5 or 10 people on them. That can't be good for the environment to have these giant machines with such low ridership.
I am not paid by anyone to promote bike lanes or sidewalks. I just think personally it would be nice to be able to walk or bike from my apartment complex 1 mile to some stores without worrying about being hit and killed by a car. (Conversely, when I'm driving, I worry about hitting the people who occasionally bike or walk along the roadway where there is really no space for them.)
To me, bike lanes and sidewalks are common sense and low cost initiatives to encourage exercise (with its attendant health benefits) and get people out of their cars - at least in nice weather - to meet each other and create a sense of safety and community.
ps - NJ Transit seems to cost $3 billion + per year. Half of that is delivered by (expensive) fares. Half by "a combination of commercial revenues, state operating assistance and state and federal reimbursements".
Not sure what 'commercial revenues' means. Probably advertisements on trains and in stations. That's fine with me. But the other parts are government subsidies to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars per year for OK service and atmosphere (at best).
Oh I forgot to mention that the transit authority in New York City actually managed to persuade the state to create a special tax last year for businesses and self-employed individuals like myself. Whether or not we rode the trains, we had to pay about 1/2 of 1% of our income to support the MTA. Doesn't sound like much, but combined with all the other taxes, it sure adds up. And we still had to pay the usual fare to ride too of course...
So yeah, I'm a bit anti-rail. Especially where it's not needed, like Nashville.
Now if you could magically create a European / Asian style bullet train that got folks from Franklin to Downtown in 5 minutes... that would be cool
Ok, I just read all these posts and have a question for those that have an issue with the cost of a rail system (or public transit in general)-why do you consider buses, trains, etc. subsidized but not non-toll road interstates? In TN there is maybe one toll road, so I've heard-I've never seen it, all the others are paid by taxes-local, state, and federal. Automobiles are just as subsidized as rail, it's just that we don't think of it that way. In Murfreesboro they're spending $30 million for an 8 mile road (the Southwest Loop)and compare that to the $41 million for 32 miles of the Music City Star. So for an additional 30% you get 400% more miles covered. There's a 32 mile road project being worked on in Maryland estimated to cost $3.1 BILLION. Hmm, seems like rail has a lot smaller subsidy than roads. . . .
Ok, there's also the annual cost of running the trains, which I couldn't find an exact number but it seems to be in the range of $1.5 million. But if you were to consider a 32 mile highway in TN might costs just $1 billion, that still gives you about 25 years before the costs are the same, assuming no maintence on the road, which you know isn't true. (ok, inflation plays in too but you get the point)
Now, do I think mass transit is really practical in Nashville? I've used the rail before and plan on taking it regularly once I get my rail pass from my job. Personally, I like the idea of relaxing in a comfortable seat for 20 minutes instead of stop and go traffic and car accidents-but that's just me. However, I don't think the suburbs are dense enough yet to really support it and most people here value the freedom of driving their gas guzzling trucks too much to give it up. I hope things change, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
We Mostly use Toll Roads and some Fed money to build new Projects and Taxes and fares keep them maintained. Now since i'm a Rail fan and i also know alot about cities and how they work and what they need. Rail can boost your economy and reduce traffic. It is down right ridiculous that in a Country of this size we don't have a Larger network. Its even worse when cities , that should have rail opt for BRT or a few Bus lines. yes buses are great , but they can only go so far, and thats why you need Rail. A start up network should have at least 10 miles of LRT and 30 miles of Commuter. Putting Tolls on Interstates in TN would be great , you wouldn't need to raise taxes to fund the project. But you can't keep building or expanding your Freeway network , espically these days where the cost of Gas is unpredictable. What happens when Gas goes up to 4$ a Gallon, people aren't go to Drive then. If Transit can work in most parts of the Country ,then give me reasons why it can't work in Nashville? And don't say its because everybody owns a car, becuz they don't have any alt to take advantage of like here. Look at Phoenix or Dallas systems for some inspiration.
~Corey
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