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Old 08-26-2011, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
genocide?
Immoral. Do you think it was moral? Why?
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:09 AM
 
6,486 posts, read 6,326,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Immoral. Do you think it was moral? Why?
I don't, no. But then I don't believe we are here by process of evolution.

I'm wondering how you can judge a man wrong for something you believe he did because of natural process of evolution. How can you hold anyone responsible for their actions?
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,144 posts, read 21,619,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
I don't, no. But then I don't believe we are here by process of evolution.

I'm wondering how you can judge a man wrong for something you believe he did because of natural process of evolution. How can you hold anyone responsible for their actions?
Calvinist, expand your horizons! You can have morals and be an evolved ape at the same time!

All human laws are arbritrary and made up; laws are valid only if there is someone powerful enough to enforce them.

We need to have the wisdom to choose/create/enforce/perpetuate the best arbitrary system available to us. It's all we've got.
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
I don't, no. But then I don't believe we are here by process of evolution.
What has evolution (a natural process) got to do with your response about genocide being moral or immoral?

Quote:
I'm wondering how you can judge a man wrong for something you believe he did because of natural process of evolution. How can you hold anyone responsible for their actions?
I can't blame evolution for someone being an idiot, just like (I'm sure) you won't blame God for having "designed" such an immoral person. Or does that make for a poor assumption, and that you believe God did so deliberately?

As for judging, I'm applying a simple approach... asking self: Would I subject self (or my loved ones) to the pain and suffering that I want to bestow upon others? Heck, I wouldn't go torture an insect "for fun". Would you?
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:24 AM
 
6,486 posts, read 6,326,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
What has evolution (a natural process) got to do with your response about genocide being moral or immoral?
If they evolved to think that such behavior was good to do, how can you say they were wrong?
Quote:
I can't blame evolution for someone being an idiot, just like (I'm sure) you won't blame God for having "designed" such an immoral person. Or does that make for a poor assumption, and that you believe God did so deliberately?

As for judging, I'm applying a simple approach... asking self: Would I subject self (or my loved ones) to the pain and suffering that I want to bestow upon others? Heck, I wouldn't go torture an insect "for fun". Would you?
Why do you think your standards are better than anyone else's?
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,763 posts, read 27,617,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
If they evolved to think that such behavior was good to do, how can you say they were wrong?
Replace "evolved" with "created", and your question will read like this:
"If they were created to think that such behavior was good to do, how can you say they were wrong?"

What would be your response? I hope you won't be blaming "creation" then. A person may actually evolve into a demon... evolution does leave room for that. Or, that "demon" may actually know very well that he is doing something wrong but the gains outweigh the benefits. Do you seriously believe that can never happen?

Quote:
Why do you think your standards are better than anyone else's?
I'm setting a standard for myself, and I certainly won't mind lending credit to reinforcing such thought in me from teachings of Buddha, Jesus etc. Clearly, you never do that? But you believe that your standards are flexible? That sometimes it is okay to torture others... things you would never want done to you and your loved ones?
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:51 AM
 
Location: MN
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the presentation of evolution as a parallel to religion is a flawed approach. Evolutionary theory is simply a model that happens to fit the available data about the world very well. We can use this model to produce some very useful results.

I originally thought that this thread was an honest expression of interest in research on the evolution of human knowledge and morality. That's a scientific topic suitable for discussion in this subforum.

Evidently, I was mistaken. Look: evolution provides a mechanism for making positive claims about how moral standards may have developed in humans. It doesn't make any normative arguments about how we should view the world.

My personal moral beliefs follow a somewhat consequentialist outlook. The wrongness of the Holocaust is derived from its awful effects. What caused Hitler to develop a sick disregard for human life isn't relevant at all.
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,763 posts, read 27,617,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2018 View Post
What caused Hitler to develop a sick disregard for human life isn't relevant at all.
I believe the original point was to credit creationism for what Hitler was.
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Old 08-26-2011, 11:43 AM
 
3,426 posts, read 3,065,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
genocide?

Yes. What? You don't think he was?
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Old 08-26-2011, 11:45 AM
 
3,426 posts, read 3,065,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
I don't, no. But then I don't believe we are here by process of evolution.

I'm wondering how you can judge a man wrong for something you believe he did because of natural process of evolution. How can you hold anyone responsible for their actions?
Hitler did what he did because he was a friggin insanely angry man.
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