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Old 02-21-2014, 08:31 PM
 
2,658 posts, read 2,695,298 times
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"Reintroduction" is such a fallacy.

We've always had wolves. Anyone who bothers to read the 1300 page report of testimony from the hearings will see that. Anyone who lives here and spends time in the out of doors knows.

What we got was the introduction of a non-native species.

We'll deal with them. Get along with some. Have to eliminate some.

But re-introduction? Laughable.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
3,727 posts, read 5,430,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
What we got was the introduction of a non-native species.
According to most hard nosed scientists, this is bunk, propaganda put out by the anti wolf groups. The Gray Wolf, Canis Lupus, has many subspecies worldwide, but in Western North America, it is pretty much the same animal, with only minor differences between subspecies. The Northern Rocky Mountains wolf, C. L. Irremotus, the original native subspecies, is one of the largest. The introduced Mackenezie Valley wolf, C. L. Occidentalis, is also one of the largest subspecies, and this is what much of the fuss is about. However, the wildlife biologists tell us that there is little, if any, differences between Irremotus and Occidentalis, that they are virtually the same animal as far as size, social structure, hunting tactics, prey selection, etc. are concerned. Claims that C. L. O. is a much larger animal are simply not true.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:12 PM
 
55,155 posts, read 43,961,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
"Reintroduction" is such a fallacy.

We've always had wolves. Anyone who bothers to read the 1300 page report of testimony from the hearings will see that. Anyone who lives here and spends time in the out of doors knows.

What we got was the introduction of a non-native species.

We'll deal with them. Get along with some. Have to eliminate some.

But re-introduction? Laughable.
Well, if you want to be obtuse.....most any special expansion is non-native if you look back 300million years or so.

Dang wolves going to hone in on the T-rex territory.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:33 AM
 
7,493 posts, read 10,150,365 times
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Thanks for sharing!
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Not.here
2,828 posts, read 3,737,882 times
Reputation: 2356
Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
"Reintroduction" is such a fallacy.

We've always had wolves. Anyone who bothers to read the 1300 page report of testimony from the hearings will see that. Anyone who lives here and spends time in the out of doors knows.

What we got was the introduction of a non-native species.

We'll deal with them. Get along with some. Have to eliminate some.

But re-introduction? Laughable.
Like the cattle?
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Duluth, MN
527 posts, read 997,275 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branDcalf View Post
"Reintroduction" is such a fallacy.

We've always had wolves. Anyone who bothers to read the 1300 page report of testimony from the hearings will see that. Anyone who lives here and spends time in the out of doors knows.

What we got was the introduction of a non-native species.

We'll deal with them. Get along with some. Have to eliminate some.

But re-introduction? Laughable.

There were certainly sightings, but there was not a sustainable population. That's what they're referring to. Also, the gray wolf has always been native to North America.

Besides, since a gray wolf will travel up to 160 miles in a week in search of food, sightings really don't mean a lot. Compound that with the fact that every other person who sees a coyote 'wants' it to be a wolf (and reports it as such; the same way people report juvenile golden eagles as bald eagles).

Last edited by Beenaroundabit; 02-24-2014 at 08:04 AM..
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
3,727 posts, read 5,430,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenaroundabit View Post
Besides, since a gray wolf will travel up to 160 miles in a week in search of food, sightings really don't mean a lot. Compound that with the fact that every other person who sees a coyote 'wants' it to be a wolf (and reports it as such; the same way people report juvenile golden eagles as bald eagles).
On another amusing related note, someone will report that a "mountain lion" is prowling their neighborhood. Upon investigating, instead of a cougar, the prowler usually turns out to be just be a big tom bobcat. A bobcat is only about 1/5 th the size of a cougar, and the two animals do not look anything alike, but the imagination does place tricks, especially at night.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:30 PM
 
2,658 posts, read 2,695,298 times
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Originally Posted by nezlie View Post
Like the cattle?
And like cattle, other herbivores, carnivores, and omnivores (including humans), they need to be managed.

None are all good or all bad for the ecosystem. They all have to co-exist.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,173 posts, read 1,055,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShoe View Post
Before the wolves, predation was only a minor threat to the huge elk population. Coyotes, which are only one third the size of wolves, and who usually hunt alone or in male/female pairs, and who do not have the social structure of wolves, are only rarely a threat to an adult elk, although they will take an occasional calf if the mother becomes careless. Bears also take a few calves, although after a few weeks growth they become too fast for bears to catch. A healthy adult elk can only be taken by a bear if caught by surprise in a close range ambush, otherwise, much too fast.

Before wolves, that left only cougars as the major danger to an adult elk. Cougars are widely scattered over YNP, and there may be only about 20-25 adults in the park at the same time. The big cats usually killed calves or cows. A mature bull elk is a very dangerous target for even a big tom to take on, and only rarely do they even try.

When wolves came back in 1995, everything changed, as the film pointed out. At first, the elk had no idea what wolves were, since they had had no need to develop anti predator defenses against them. The first few years were times of easy, abundant hunting for the wolves. But then, as new generations of elk were born, the hunting got much tougher. The elk learned and adopted anti wolf behavior. So too, did the bison and other animals. As far as the other predators go, the wolves were very bad for coyotes, not good for cougars, good for bears, particularly grizzlies, who scavenge wolf kills, and in many cases, will even take away a recent kill from a wolf pack, provided the grizzly is a mature male of at least average size.
i always wondered about the coyote part because i watched a documentary about coyotes in YNP of how there were packs of 20-30 animals im wondering if wolves just came in and basically slaughtered them?
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:50 PM
 
178 posts, read 353,172 times
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I'm so glad that wolves are back on the rise in Washington state.
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