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Old 02-24-2014, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
3,727 posts, read 5,428,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinSonic View Post
i always wondered about the coyote part because i watched a documentary about coyotes in YNP of how there were packs of 20-30 animals im wondering if wolves just came in and basically slaughtered them?
It is estimated that the coyote population of the park today is only half of what it was prior to 1995. The wolves killed every coyote they could, and changed coyote behavior. Large packs are not usual for coyotes, they do not have the complex social structure that wolves do. More common is to hunt alone, in male/female mated pairs, or perhaps in family packs, parents and pups. Coyotes must always be very wary and alert for wolves, if not, they risk being killed.

Coyotes take a heavy toll on pronghorn fawns, as well as feeding heavily on smaller rodents. Fewer coyotes mean more fawns survive. More rodents mean more food for smaller predators such as foxes and weasels. Fewer elk means more cover and food for rodents and birds. Wolf dynamics at work again.

Wolves have not been good for cougars, they have been forced more into the backcountry heights and valleys. A wolf pack will steal a kill from a cougar, and even gang up on and kill one if they can. The pack strength lies in numbers, and even the biggest, baddest tom cougar in Yellowstone has to abandon his kill and run for cover when several adult wolves close in.

Last edited by BlackShoe; 02-24-2014 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 03-16-2014, 10:56 AM
 
Location: TOVCCA
8,452 posts, read 12,112,244 times
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The response from people I have shared this video with has been stunning, and every one took the time to tell me that all the other people they sent it to said the same thing to them!

Thanks again
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Old 03-17-2014, 09:47 AM
 
Location: mid wyoming
2,008 posts, read 6,173,469 times
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I can tell you about the wolves, they have decimated the moose population, severely impacted the elk population, ditto with the deer. You will see far less deer fawn, elk calves, moose young when out in the summer and fall-IF you see them at all. They have started on the elk in the feed grounds during the winter and you get to see them in action. Do it, they are a very efficient killing machine, they just don't eat most of the animals they kill, it is called bloodlust when they just kill to kill. Oh some might say it's just them teaching their young to kill for survival. I personally have came upon 17 to 20 elk killed in a winter feed grounds, they had a few bites out of the hind quarters, the lips gone and maybe some odd bits out of other parts of them. But on a whole they were still intact. During the winter the elk are in the feed grounds to eat food given to them, conserve energy and make it through the winter better. The wolves have figured this out. You should see the wolves kill a moose or elk, it is something you will not forget. Slowly wearing it down until it hardly can keep it's head up or walk or turn as they come in and in again and again to bite it somewhere and finally they all jump on and drag it to the ground, eating on it while it is still alive. OR maybe a mother will fight and fight to protect her baby from they as they lunge in again and again at the baby. Maybe they will drag it a few feet or yards away from the mother and she will try to get past the wolves to her baby to save it, usually not saving it, but only let it live in terror for a few more minutes in life, until the end.
The wolves are also killing livestock that are out here, mainly the young ones, they are also coming in farms, ranches and yes in towns to kill Spot the dog or Fluffy the cat as they go about their lives, not knowing death is just around the next water/food bowl or hedge and fence.
Have you ever seen a still live animal dragging a bloody back leg it cannot stand on, but the will to live is so bad it won't let itself die? I have. I quit hunting in a area that I have hunted in for over 19 years because the game go so scarce the experience was not worth my time. People out here in the area they have took over no longer have the quality of life we came to know.
I hope this sheds more light on your beautiful animals that were forced upon us out here in Wyoming.
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Old 03-17-2014, 10:29 AM
 
Location: TOVCCA
8,452 posts, read 12,112,244 times
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So you feel sorry for an animal being killed by another animal?

No, you miss having the opportunity to kill it yourself.
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,650,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowwalker View Post
I can tell you about the wolves, they have decimated the moose population, severely impacted the elk population, ditto with the deer. You will see far less deer fawn, elk calves, moose young when out in the summer and fall-IF you see them at all. They have started on the elk in the feed grounds during the winter and you get to see them in action. Do it, they are a very efficient killing machine, they just don't eat most of the animals they kill, it is called bloodlust when they just kill to kill. Oh some might say it's just them teaching their young to kill for survival. I personally have came upon 17 to 20 elk killed in a winter feed grounds, they had a few bites out of the hind quarters, the lips gone and maybe some odd bits out of other parts of them. But on a whole they were still intact. During the winter the elk are in the feed grounds to eat food given to them, conserve energy and make it through the winter better. The wolves have figured this out. You should see the wolves kill a moose or elk, it is something you will not forget. Slowly wearing it down until it hardly can keep it's head up or walk or turn as they come in and in again and again to bite it somewhere and finally they all jump on and drag it to the ground, eating on it while it is still alive. OR maybe a mother will fight and fight to protect her baby from they as they lunge in again and again at the baby. Maybe they will drag it a few feet or yards away from the mother and she will try to get past the wolves to her baby to save it, usually not saving it, but only let it live in terror for a few more minutes in life, until the end.
The wolves are also killing livestock that are out here, mainly the young ones, they are also coming in farms, ranches and yes in towns to kill Spot the dog or Fluffy the cat as they go about their lives, not knowing death is just around the next water/food bowl or hedge and fence.
Have you ever seen a still live animal dragging a bloody back leg it cannot stand on, but the will to live is so bad it won't let itself die? I have. I quit hunting in a area that I have hunted in for over 19 years because the game go so scarce the experience was not worth my time. People out here in the area they have took over no longer have the quality of life we came to know.
I hope this sheds more light on your beautiful animals that were forced upon us out here in Wyoming.
I hope this article sheds more light on the decline of western moose populations even in areas where wolves are NOT present: Moose Populations
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:52 AM
 
Location: mid wyoming
2,008 posts, read 6,173,469 times
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YES nightsparrow I do want to "kill" that animal. You see if I do it I will Eat 98% of the meat and sell the hide and use most of the bones and antlers (if I get one with them) for making things to use or sell. When the wolves do it alot of times most of the meat is left to rot, yes other animals do eat it, sometimes....
Linda_D supposed "reasearch" articles can be construed to any angle or advantage you want. I have witnessed the killing of a moose calf and again a 2 year old moose. I came back several days later, the calf was mostly ate, it's mother was still by the remains. The two year old bull still had over 75% of the meat left on the carcass and the carrion eaters were at it. The wolf tracks were days old.
We can banter this to death and both of you and I will never agree......
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Duluth, MN
527 posts, read 996,922 times
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When wolves kill an animal and don't consume all of it, it eventually gets consumed by other species - mainly birds and smaller animals.

That's the bigger picture: yes, wolves kill elk, deer and moose, though mainly the smaller and weaker. But other species also benefit from it, and that benefits the entire ecosystem.

As far as seeing a dying animal, dragging a shattered leg, etc., it's not like wolves are doing it for sport to to be cruel and vindictive. Animals kill animals. And sometimes they wound them. That's not the fault of the wolves, as a species, for doing what comes naturally to them: trying to survive.

And of course, I'd bet that far more big-game animals are horribly wounded or maimed every day in this country by cars than they are by wolves. I've had to put enough of them down.

And just an FYI - but there are several programs that compensate ranchers and cattlemen for livestock lost to wolf predation. So it's not like wolves have ever been a major threat to their livelihood. An inconvenience, maybe, but that's about it.
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:15 AM
 
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"And just an FYI - but there are several programs that compensate ranchers and cattlemen for livestock lost to wolf predation. So it's not like wolves have ever been a major threat to their livelihood. An inconvenience, maybe, but that's about it."


Wolf predation of cattle affects calf weight in Montana -- ScienceDaily

The above link describes the economic impact of wolf harassment on calves that results in low sale weight. It also cites the rate at which a rancher is reimbursed for a cow killed by a wolf. Average $900. Not quite half of what a decent cow brings and doesn't compensate for future calves the cow might have had.

Then there is a emotional impact on ranchers and workers. Many of you won't understand or believe this but ranchers and workers treat their animals humanely. We like our cows. We don't like to see one even ill. To find one that thrashed around while being eaten alive just hurts. And it's not easy to have to shoot one that is laying there moaning with its' back end, nose and some of its' stomach eaten out.

All adds up to quite a bit more than "an inconvenience."
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,650,381 times
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The article you linked included this info:

Quote:
The study notes that while the economic impact of lower herd weights caused by wolf depredation is not insignificant to ranchers, other ranch-specific husbandry practices and climatological and environmental variables such as annual precipitation, average temperature and snowfall explain a much larger proportion of variance in calf weight over the years than do wolf affects. In fact, these other factors explain the vast majority of the accounted-for variation in annual calf weights.
Also, while the researchers showed a link between wolf-kills and lower calf weight on ranches where those happened, it didn't explain why that was. It could be, for example, that wolf-kills were more numerous when wolves had harder time finding prey in wilderness areas because of drought ... and/or when drought led cattle to wander further into the high country seeking grass.

In our area, we have a lot more black bear sightings in late summer/fall in dry years than in wet years because the bears move into exurban/suburban areas in search of food.
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:53 PM
 
2,654 posts, read 2,691,604 times
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Ranchers acknowledge there is an effect by weather and other factors on calf weights. They look at all factors and research for any they haven't thought of. But they also don't deny the impact of wolf harassment.

Pretty much, we've dealt with nature in all it's forms for decades, and adapt. We really are slow, in general, to classify anything as all good or all bad.

Remember, too, that we were already co-existing with wolves before the introduction of the Canadian grey. Just wasn't enough of them to satisfy the marketed notion of what "should" be here.
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