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Old 05-01-2019, 03:24 PM
 
Location: New York Area
18,476 posts, read 7,318,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
My alternative has been to use LGD's, and we have settled on a breed that tends to be loyal and diligent in their job. They either chase off or can kill a coyote in a fight, but they cannot be everywhere all the time. Our livestock losses are much less with the LGD's, but we still lose some each year to coyotes. We've even been alerted to a coyote-LGD fight where the coyote was getting the worst of it and was down but not giving up or dead. I've then dispatched the coyote to save the wear & tear & potential injury to my LGD.
What is an LGD? And interesting post.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:29 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What is an LGD? And interesting post.
Livestock Guardian Dog.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:23 PM
 
Location: In the Pearl of the Purchase, Ky
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One other experience about a coyote wasn't me but my nephew and his wife. They put their little dog out on his leash about 10 one night to take care of his "business" like they have done every night at 10. Went to let him in and he wasn't there. Nephew went out with a flashlight and at the end of the leash all he found was blood, hair, and a few bones. Neighbors told him later about problems with coyotes in the area that had killed other pets. Hardest part was telling their 8 year old son the next morning.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:02 PM
 
11,266 posts, read 45,023,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What is an LGD? And interesting post.
Livestock Guardian Dog.

There are several breeds that are frequently used for this purpose, typically large dogs (100 lbs +) that are quick enough to run down a coyote and strong enough to win in "dogfights" with a coyote.

The key to these dog breeds is that they are working dogs, have a good work ethic, and want a "job" with a geographic territory and flock to watch over. Indeed, part of the training of one of our dogs is to walk the perimeter of the ranch several times per day with the dog until it "learns" (the territory) where the sheep are to be watched and protected. This can take weeks to months to accomplish. Ideally, the dog never leaves the flock unless it's chasing a predator away from the flock.

Unfortunately, some of the more popular LGD breeds have become AKC darlings and now have lineage extending to being "pets" instead of working dogs. IOW, the characteristics that made them good choices for LGD service has been generally bred out of them … think Great Pyr's and St. Bernard's and similar breeds where vanity ownership probably accounts for 95% of their owners and few dogs are "working" LGD dogs.

Part of the challenge here is that you've got to find a breed and dog that is capable of living 24/7/365 independently with their flock of sheep and stay with them, aggressively challenging any threat to the flock. They are not "property guard dogs", and a good LGD isn't bothered with such matters unlike some breeds commonly used for property and personal protection service. And they need to be socialized enough that they're not a threat to people (especially strangers who may come onto the property in their territory, such as a postman, delivery driver, or a traveling sales rep knocking on your door), yet not so socialized that they prefer human companionship to doing their LGD duties. Ideally, when a stranger comes onto our property, the LGD's will take up a position where they can keep an eye on their flock and the stranger until they leave. All without making a sound, no barking, no threatening dog behavior … almost a "ghost" dog. Some of ours are amazingly silent dogs … we can be out on the property doing some work and suddenly you've got one of them nuzzling you that you didn't see or hear approach. Just as silently, if they sense something that bears their investigation, they're off in a flash … silently. It's only when they're alerting to a predator that they may bark to drive it away, but I've seen them attack a young coyote without having made a sound before the teeth are gnashing away at the predator.

The breed we've selected has only been in the USA for less than 20 years. They've not yet been AKC'ed and aren't a show breed. We dread the day when that may happen, although these large dogs are not suited for small yards or inside the house living. For the moment, most of them need a job and if you don't have a flock or livestock for them to guard, they will roam until they can find a flock to guard … even if it's not yours. Not uncommon for these dogs to roam 10-20 miles radius from home until they find a "job" if you don't have one for them. Currently, they're $1,000 (and up) for ranch bred dogs with no training except for the pups to be near lambing or calving operations but with constant supervision to be sure that they grow up to be "livestock safe".

To give you an idea how intelligent a really good LGD dog is, here's a situation I encountered a few years ago: "Maggie", our lead LGD then had a bunch (about 100 head + lambs) of the sheep rounded up in a pasture. What alerted us to a "problem" was that she had barked at the sheep and had them all together instead of them being dispersed in the field where they should have been grazing that day. IOW, those hungry sheep weren't grazing, which became our first concern. Mrs Sun got on an ATV and rode out to investigate. What she found was Maggie barking at a spot in the grassy pasture, which turned out to be a large coiled and rattling snake. We carry a shotgun on our ATV's specifically for predator/skunk control and this was the time to use it. With the snake threat eliminated, Maggie went back to checking the perimeter fence of that 80 acres and the sheep quietly went back to grazing there.

Part of what helps our sheep operation is that we have Corgi's at our house as dual purpose dogs … companions and herd dogs. Our older ones know where the sheep and cows should be and even from the house, can sense when the livestock is "out". They'll alert us to these situations, and we can count on the Corgi's to herd the livestock back to various corrals. No, we haven't gotten them so trained that they'll always take the livestock to the corral we'd choose, but at least we're getting the livestock back into a controlled area and can move them from there as we desire. As well, the Corgi's alert us to the outside LGD activities … if, for example, one of the LGD's is in a tangle with a coyote, the Corgi's may be the first alert to let us know that something's going on. With it being over a mile from our house to the far reaches of our ranch fences, this is a pretty significant and valuable job that the Corgi's do for us. I've had a couple times where a bunch of our sheep were almost 2 miles from our ranch, wandering up the creek bottom to neighbor's ranchland … and the Corgi's herded the sheep back to our property while I watched from an adjacent county road, sitting on an ATV and monitoring the progress.

The wonder here is that our Corgi's are rescue dogs and the eldest didn't even need to be trained to do this work. Such is the instinctive behavior of working breed dogs. And it's also why I get very concerned when folk show up in the country around us with hunting breed dogs that have no job … because sooner or later, those dogs on the loose will be hunting my livestock. I've seen this scenario time and time again … but that's fodder for another thread as we have done so many times on these C-D forums in the past.

Last edited by sunsprit; 05-01-2019 at 05:52 PM..
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Old 05-01-2019, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Approximately 50 miles from Missoula MT/38 yrs full time after 4 yrs part time
2,309 posts, read 3,476,821 times
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"FWIW" type information:
When I completed the contruction of this home back in 1980 on these 14 remote acres, there were probably 3or 4 small "family packs" of coyotes that lived within a mile of my location.
My late wife and I would frequently hear them "howl" back and forth at night and would occasionally see one or two crossing my property during the day. I've always had a cyclonfenced dog run about 10x20 feet for two dogs........so they were never out running free unless either my wife or I were out with them and they always had their electronic collars on. The coyotes were never a problem, but as time passed (in the next 15 to 20 years or so) their numbers in this particular area dropped off noticeably............and it is also interesting to note that after the introduction of wolves in this area of western Montana, the coyote population really dropped much further.
Case in point..........in my particular area, i haven't seen a coyote on my property or on any of the neighboring ranchers property in my area, in the last 4 to 6 years, and haven't heard them howling at night for maybe as long as 8 years.
According to Fish and Wildlife personnel, overtime, wolves will drive the coyotes out of certain areas and the wolves take over.
As to the various effects related to the introduction (or reintroduction) of wolves into certain areas of western MT-------------that is a: Whole Nother Story!!!
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Old 05-01-2019, 06:47 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
15,177 posts, read 12,295,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What is an LGD? And interesting post.

Great Pyranese are the herd guard dog of choice herebouts In terms of actually engaging the yotes. And never just one dog. Yotes are canny and vicious and can and will take out large dogs. I've seen them rip Rotts to taco meat. But Pyranease are different. Their heavy fur is almost impossible for the yotes to get their teeth through and they are quite powerful and more than formidable.


Wile E has a tactic. A loner will come in and lure a large dog out where 3 or 4 more of the loners mates are waiting. That's why Pyranese are always used in at least pairs.
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Old 05-01-2019, 06:59 PM
 
Location: New York Area
18,476 posts, read 7,318,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
Livestock Guardian Dog.

There are several breeds that are frequently used for this purpose, typically large dogs (100 lbs +) that are quick enough to run down a coyote and strong enough to win in "dogfights" with a coyote.*************

Part of what helps our sheep operation is that we have Corgi's at our house as dual purpose dogs … companions and herd dogs. **************
The wonder here is that our Corgi's are rescue dogs and the eldest didn't even need to be trained to do this work. Such is the instinctive behavior of working breed dogs. And it's also why I get very concerned when folk show up in the country around us with hunting breed dogs that have no job … because sooner or later, those dogs on the loose will be hunting my livestock. I've seen this scenario time and time again … but that's fodder for another thread as we have done so many times on these C-D forums in the past.
I can't rep you again, sunsprit, but I have to tell you, one of the most absorbing and fascinating posts I've read on CD or for that matter about dogs, anywhere.
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:05 PM
 
Location: New York Area
18,476 posts, read 7,318,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Great Pyranese are the herd guard dog of choice herebouts In terms of actually engaging the yotes. And never just one dog. Yotes are canny and vicious and can and will take out large dogs. I've seen them rip Rotts to taco meat. But Pyranease are different. Their heavy fur is almost impossible for the yotes to get their teeth through and they are quite powerful and more than formidable.

Wile E has a tactic. A loner will come in and lure a large dog out where 3 or 4 more of the loners mates are waiting. That's why Pyranese are always used in at least pairs.
Great and informative post. I prefer chorrizo or carnitas to ripped up Rott as my taco filling.

As a breed, I take it Golden Retrievers are not good LGD's. They are better at ripping up people than yotes.

Last edited by jbgusa; 05-01-2019 at 07:09 PM.. Reason: Fix phantom triple spacing when return bar is used to create space.
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:27 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
15,177 posts, read 12,295,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Great and informative post. I prefer chorrizo or carnitas to ripped up Rott as my taco filling.

As a breed, I take it Golden Retrievers are not good LGD's. They are better at ripping up people than yotes.

LOL, shredded beef is my choice as well but Wile E ain't near so picky. mmmm, Rott. It's what's for supper. I have to compliment Sunsprit as well in choosing Corgis for herd dogs. They don't stand a chance against Wile E and company in a scrap but they are the best come roundup.


I used Corgis when I worked cattle while all my pards insisted on Queenslands. Knot head barking snapping kick magnets that just stirred up the herd while my Corgi actually moved them. Golden Retrievers would not be much good on herd duty. They might be on the menu for Wile E but working or guarding cattle they would be worthless.


I'll probably get scarified for this but they ain't near smart enough.
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:31 PM
 
Location: New York Area
18,476 posts, read 7,318,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
I'll probably get scarified for this but they ain't near smart enough.
But they make up in ferocity what they lack in intellect.
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