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Old 08-26-2017, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Groveland, FL
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The story that traumatized me the most in that regard was this one. To be eaten alive is horrific beyond words! And I can't imagine being her poor mother, feeling helpless at not being able to help her daughter. Russian Mom Hears Daughter's Final Agony As She Is Eaten Alive By Bears | HuffPost
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Old 08-26-2017, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
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Sometimes the human isn't the apex predator. That's biology.
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Old 08-26-2017, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Kalamalka Lake, B.C.
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Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
I always found it curious that in Banff National Park (Canada), there are signs along all the trails telling you waht to do in case you come across a Grizzley Bear. But in Glacier National Park (in the US), there were none. Can you guess where more attacks, injuries and fatalities occured?
Banff and Jasper were also one of the first to put in over/under pathways (since the Tans Canada Highway is just that: a highway you can't get rid of) and every animal uses it. Grizzly changed their protein habits in Yellowstone after introduced Lake Trout decimated the spring spawns of brook trout. They shifted to Elk calves and big protein.

Where I am on one side of the lake we don't hike without bear spray and/or a bang stick, for black bears are nasty on the east side of the lake. The Grizz are on the west side of Lake Windermere. K2 Ranch is opening a path along the lake now, so it should be problematic that incidents would increase, so we'll see.

You're far likely to be taken down by a cougar or a black bear. Grizzlys' very rarely look for trouble.
We have a host of them up at the ranch at 4,000 feet and higher and once in awhile an old cow will be taken by a cougar. But a Grizz? Usually ground squirrels, bulbs, and grass.
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Old 08-26-2017, 09:32 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
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Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
With this ban the cats are out of control here. They are concentrated on the same sliver of Mt ranges the deer like and are really putting the screws to em. Just last year a friend of mine heard something below him in his stand so he took a flash pic and it was a cat with a fawn in it's mouth. I've seen lions every year now when only 10 years ago all you saw were occasional tracks.

The ban was lifted in the mid 90s. Or did certain areas of the state retain it? There is hunting for them going on in the areas of CA near me. I don't know what it takes to land a tag there. Never worried about it. One costs me 7 bucks when I buy a hunting license here. Good for anywhere in the state. I always buy one. Any attempt to ban or even limit hunting them would not fly here in NV. No way.


Our mountain ranges and even desert areas are dripping with them. Yet we have not had any human attacks at all in decades upon decades. All the attacks have been on the CA side. Nationwide there have been more attacks there than all other states combined. Opportunity may be the culprit there. More people, more slamming up against habitat. But attacks are hardly limited to population expanded areas. The remote areas of CA still see more attacks than anywhere else in the nation for Mountain Lions.


Aside from cats, only Polar bears have a nastier reputation for attacking humans. Polars are different as bears go. Consumate and indiscriminate predators. Unlike other bears their diet consists of meat. Opportunity for omnivorous behavior doesn't come up much in their region. Not any roots or berries out on the ice. They are built and engineered as killers. Take a look at their claws as compared to any other bear species. They are scimitars. Closer to feline claws, but more formidable.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Indeed. With cats this sentiment pops up as well. Cats, which are more numerous than bears, cover huge amounts of ground. They are not stationary to a staked out territory. Anyone who has actually seen a Mountain Lion in action knows very well how they can cover ground. I once observed a cat take a deer kill straight up a shear rock face and over the top. And it didn't take it much effort from where I was looking.


These free climbing enthusiasts would do well to study Mountain Lions. They are THE best free climbers in the world. Hands down. Just as dolphins are the best surfers. To my knowledge we have never had a human attack by a Mountain Lion in my area. Or in NV at all. All the attacks have been on the CA side. And a fair number as well.


Areas where cats are more common are mainly rural, ranching and farming areas. Ranching far more so than farms. And we ranch types know cats well. If you want to know when a cat is in proximity or has been recently your horse will tell you in no uncertain terms. They are to be implicitly trusted. Often enough at the first little whiff they will balk straight down the backtrail. There have been historical cases where a horse and rider were jumped by a cat. This is just a wow to me, knowing how a horse acts when a cats around or even has been. Seems to me someone wasn't listening.


The nose always knows and horses have a great sense of smell. In firsthand comparison, my opinion is they're better than a dog. My close buddy who's a tracker of consummate skill agrees. He's a Shoshone guy, who has spent his whole life in rough, remote country running cattle, and I trust him as much as I trust my horse. That's a compliment of the highest order in our world.


I would like to see the discussion move away from bears. It was a bear incident that made me start this thread but it's cats that have the spotlight as man eaters/killers. But the big cats are the bad news. Personally I'm not confused by such behavior in them. Cats enjoy killing. And humans are easy pickings. But I haven't dug into any deep scientific examination of man eaters. Scientists are stillat a loss to explain the Ghost and the Darkness in Tsavo 1890s. Two males, on a thrill kill rampage. It's still a one off incident. The Tsavo lions are still infamous for being notorious man eaters. More so than any other species of cat.
I remember, up around Ft. Collins in the 90s, there were several attacks and killings of joggers by Cougars. I've heard them, howling/crying in Mt Rainer, but its' strange looking back that I didn't worry about them when I was cross-country skiing, NW of Boulder.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:35 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
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Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
I remember, up around Ft. Collins in the 90s, there were several attacks and killings of joggers by Cougars. I've heard them, howling/crying in Mt Rainer, but its' strange looking back that I didn't worry about them when I was cross-country skiing, NW of Boulder.

Poodlestix story she linked was a bad one. Sow bears with cubs should always be given widest possible berth. Unfortunately that's not always possible. Wit bears looking at most cases (minus the Polar bear) maulings are more common that killings, and even when a victim is killed consumption by the animal doesn't always take place. There are historical accounts of true maneater type Brown bears in the Alaskan region, and far less commonly in the lower 48. They are called by a certain name that eludes me at the moment. polar bears will kill and eat anything that crosses their path.


I've heard of cat attacks in CO with some frequency as well. After CA I believe CO comes in second there. I have never heard of nor can I find any history of human attacks here in NV. But as I've said, we don't have any places where there are any great numbers of people presenting opportunity. Not far away in CA there have been problems and if these animals had not been brought down making their way to this side would have been quite easy. Should they have been so inclined. Cats can cover ground like no other animal. And terrain is no problem at all. Horizontal or vertical they traverse with as equal alacrity.


I've run into a few over the years both hunting and in other pursuits in wild places here with no problems but a seriously unhappy horse, and a realization that I wouldn't be bringing any venison out of the area I was in. Their yowling has left me no less spooked than my horse. And other times my horse knew there was one about but I cut no sign. Nevertheless I listened to the horse.


I can't say as I've never worried about them as you do when I was out in the scrub. And It was a rare thing any of us ever went out to any high graze areas or such alone. Not just because of cats. There are LOTS of things to consider there, especially on horseback. Getting tossed and broke is a biggy. And that could see a cat take more than passing notice of a guy. (or gal)


As man eater attacks go Africa and India have a far more extensive history than N America. The most famous incidents come from Africa, but famous isn't always meaning more severe. Tigers are as equal offenders to lions. Scientifically, explanations to this behavior are often elusive in certainty. As I think about it I suppose sharks can also be considered in the topic here. Though explaining attacks by sharks seems a lot more simplistic to me. That's sort of a see food and eat thing. Unlike particularly feline mammals, sharks do not thrill kill. "Feeding frenzies" cannot even be described thus. I suppose it's a blood drunk reaction, but unlike the feline mammals there is no methodology to it. Pure instinct. Not so with cats.
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:29 AM
 
Location: West Coast U.S.A.
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Originally Posted by AllisonHB View Post
Here are the pivotal points. Concentration in smaller and smaller bits of habitat for both cats and deer. The cats were probably always around, but due to their efficiently secretive nature, not as obvious. Now that there's a lot less habitat the deer and the cats are squeezed closer to humans.
Going back a few decades there were less of them, but now that people have stopped trying to eliminate them their numbers are growing. Their natural range is basically all of the United States, so I wonder what the "we're in their territory" people would have to say to that?

There are sightings at the fringes of cities in the western states now and then. I live in a medium sized city, and there were a couple of sightings here in town in a wooded area near outskirts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
If you want to know when a cat is in proximity or has been recently your horse will tell you in no uncertain terms. They are to be implicitly trusted. Often enough at the first little whiff they will balk straight down the backtrail. There have been historical cases where a horse and rider were jumped by a cat. This is just a wow to me, knowing how a horse acts when a cats around or even has been. Seems to me someone wasn't listening.


The nose always knows and horses have a great sense of smell. In firsthand comparison, my opinion is they're better than a dog. My close buddy who's a tracker of consummate skill agrees. He's a Shoshone guy, who has spent his whole life in rough, remote country running cattle, and I trust him as much as I trust my horse. That's a compliment of the highest order in our world.
I was walking down an old logging road years back when I got the sense of being watched by a predator. No idea why, but I was certain that I needed to get out of there. I turned around and went back to my friend's house a quarter mile down the road. When I told them my story they said that there had been cougar sightings recently in the area.

It's possible there wasn't anything there at all, but it's also possible that my senses were warning me to be cautious. My guess is that I unconsciously noticed something different in the animal sounds around me.

I'll take cougars over grizzlies any day. Grizzlies are much too easily ticked off. They're coming back into it's natural range because some people think it's a good idea. Back in the day a person could go hiking and not have to worry about surprising a bear and getting mauled. Yes, I do realize that wasn't the case in the mountain states but it's been true in the far western states. Now Washington has grizzlies--just a few to start with--but eventually you'll be seeing them in Oregon and California too.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:18 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
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Originally Posted by Angry-Koala View Post
Going back a few decades there were less of them, but now that people have stopped trying to eliminate them their numbers are growing. Their natural range is basically all of the United States, so I wonder what the "we're in their territory" people would have to say to that?

There are sightings at the fringes of cities in the western states now and then. I live in a medium sized city, and there were a couple of sightings here in town in a wooded area near outskirts.



I was walking down an old logging road years back when I got the sense of being watched by a predator. No idea why, but I was certain that I needed to get out of there. I turned around and went back to my friend's house a quarter mile down the road. When I told them my story they said that there had been cougar sightings recently in the area.

It's possible there wasn't anything there at all, but it's also possible that my senses were warning me to be cautious. My guess is that I unconsciously noticed something different in the animal sounds around me.

I'll take cougars over grizzlies any day. Grizzlies are much too easily ticked off. They're coming back into it's natural range because some people think it's a good idea. Back in the day a person could go hiking and not have to worry about surprising a bear and getting mauled. Yes, I do realize that wasn't the case in the mountain states but it's been true in the far western states. Now Washington has grizzlies--just a few to start with--but eventually you'll be seeing them in Oregon and California too.

About ten years ago NV and CA decided that the range of mountains butting up to our spread was a good place to relocate problem bears from Yosemite. Just a couple at first, but they rather overflowed the cup over time. These mountains don't have enough food for a large population of bears, but there's one there now. All transplanted problem children, and now their cubs. Consequently they're coming down to browse. So far only on the East slope at the Army depot. It's open country on our side. Just a few widespread ranches. No easy groceries. The base is having the devils time with them in the housing area. Now they have to be relocated ...again.


Cats have always dripped on this range. But they can live off the deer, bighorn sheep and such. They have been the problem for us with stock predation. We take a certain amount as acceptable loss, but when it becomes a habit something has to be done. So far there have been no attacks on people though.
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
There's a link to an incident in current events to a story of a hiker killed by a Grizzly in Yellowstone. Pretty gruesome incident. The man was partially consumed and covered. Something these bears do when they intend to come back later for the rest of a kill. There seems to be a sentiment that this is an acceptable thing being as the man was "in the bears territory." Lets discuss the nature of the phenomena of man eaters.


Grizzles (or Brown Bear and Silvertip in some regions) and Mountain Lions are the prime offenders in this category in the US, Lions and leapords in African nations, and tigers in India. We are all I would think familiar enough with the history in the latter two but there seems to be a lack of knowledge regarding North America. Grizzlies and Mountain Lions have a notable history easily searchable. As are African lions and leapords and Indian tigers.


There seems to be a discussion regarding whether or not humans can coexist with serious apex predators turned man eater. The general consensus is that man eating is not an instinctive act by such animals. Actively seeking humans as prey is something that these animals just don't do as a normal thing. But when they do, they do not stop and will keep killing to the point of stalking communities and any place that humans congregate.


The worst case I can bring to mind is the incident in the Tsavo region of Africa made famous by the movie The Ghost and the Darkness. Not a particularly historically accurate film but the general storyline was close. These animals killed hundreds and eluded many attempts to kill them. It's a good read if anyone is so inclined to get the real story.


Man eaters will NOT stop. The bear I mentioned earlier will be tracked down, identified and shot dead. Properly so in my opinion. It ate the man it killed. It will do so again, and eventually start raiding crowded areas of the park if just left to its devices. There is some debate as to what exactly causes an animal to start killing humans regularly as food. There's no theory that can actually stick other than it seems that once they start they won't stop so it's undebatable that they like doing so. For whatever reason.


The only way to make them quit is to track them down and make them. An action they are quite willing to contest. So, this practice is under fire from certain quarters as not being proper. Personally I feel otherwise but some do take a different view. Having studied a bit on the historical aspect of man eaters I'm wondering how these folks feel the situation should be handled. Trank them and put them in a zoo? Relocate them perhaps? I see serious problems with both these possibilities. Need I list them? I think not. The history of man eating predators is lengthy but well worth the time to study if you're a nature oriented, serious outdoor type that ventures into the stomping grounds of apex predator animals or if you live in proximity.


Never have I dealt with an animal that has killed humans, (I'm quite thankful for that) but I have dealt with habitual stock killers. Another developed habit that these critters just won't quit. There was an incident near Auburn CA in the late 80s where a woman was killed by a Mountain Lion on a jogging path. The cat drug her off as food for her cubs. Oh my. There was an 80s version of a gofundme for her family, a husband and three children, which raised around $5000.00 dollars $500.00 dollars of which came from the shop I worked at in Reno. There was also such an effort for the two cubs. The she cat was shot dead. Incredibly this raised $25000.00 dollars.


Wow. So I have to wonder what people who would think like this see as proper action in the case of man eaters. This mentality seems to be confined to the US, as in Africa and India the solution is obvious and beyond contestation. It seems an interesting nature related discussion to me. I am not trying to spark heated and insult ridden rhetoric here. I am looking for a more scientific approach to debate based on history and knowledge of the phenomena of man eaters and what methodology people see as being proper in application to the issue when it arises.


There are a lot of things to consider when forming an opinion on such animals so please no uninformed and emotion driven commentary. I will ask the mods to delete such postings as inflammatory and off topic. I would like historical, scientific and real world experience with apex predators, that habitually stalk humans. Those who have knowledge and experience with habitual stock killers as well since the phenomena is similar in nature. Reasons animals turn this way can often be discovered when the animal is brought down. Injuries, age and such are factors. But some just do it because they seem to like it. It's an interesting if a bit morbid and gruesome topic. I'm quite interested in hearing some good commentary.
A few random responses to a few parts of your post: first, the appropriate response to a situation where a human is killed and consumed is to destroy the animal, period. I've seen all of the arguments against it and none of them make sense. You mentioned grizzlies and Mt. lions being the primary offenders. As far as bear are concerned, polar bear are the most dangerous but if you're talking about mainland U.S., black bear are actually more likely to stalk and consume a human than a griz. Young male black bear that are kicked out of the litter early often have to fight for new territory and food sources and sometimes they will take a bite out of a human. I'll let you defer back to the historical cases if you'd like, but take note that many of the black bear involved in offensive, predatory human attacks are males and weigh 200-300 lb and are regarded as completely healthy when it happens .

People who have never visited New Jersey are often surprised to find out how much preserved open space we actually have here. Not only that, but at one time just a few years ago, we had the densest population of black bear per square mile in the continental U.S. It was a ticking time bomb. Eventually the worst happened. It begain when a young, male black bear stalked a pair of hikers. The pair made it safely to the trailhead but on their way out, they ran into a group of hikers entering the preserve and warned them but the group proceeded anyway. The bear began stalking the group and they split up and one of them was run down, killed and partially consumed. The bear was still guarding the kill when rangers arrived (predatory behavior). The bear was euthanized and this generated the same tiresome arguments about people encroaching on their territory, let the bears live, etc. Then the attacks on the victim started, he deserved to die more than the bear, he taunted the bear by taking cell phone pictures, etc. Sickness. What people fail to realize (and I know that you do) is that bear behavior is learned. If a bear observes another bear chase down and kill a human, it will do the same thing. Next thing you know, bear are a much larger threat to people and the bear are extirpated again. So good bear management means that the bears can live.

I acknowledge that brown bear also stalk and consume humans from time to time. I remember the incident from Glacier N.P. in the 70's, frightening. There was also the Timothy Treadwell incident, and also the Sankebetsu Brown Bear incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankeb..._bear_incident

There's a good book with a large number of these cases investigated in detail. Author is Stephen Herrero, title is "Bear Attacks, their causes and avoidance." Fascinating albeit frightening and slightly morbid.

Agree about mountain lions too. I have read that joggers are particularly prone to attacks, as the running and heavy breathing triggers the instinct to give chase. I would imagine that anyone who is injured and limping on the trail or is not walking with an upright gait might do the same, as predators often zero in on injured prey.

If I had my choice, I'd rather get nailed by a Mt. lion. Let him come down from a ridge and take me out from behind, much better than being eaten by a bear, as they eat their prey alive (soft parts first) and often cache the suffering but still partially alive remains for later. No thanks.

There are historical tales of wolfpacks preying heavily on villagers in France and Russia, but I don't know the validity of them, etc.
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
:
There are a lot of things to consider when forming an opinion on such animals so please no uninformed and emotion driven commentary. I will ask the mods to delete such postings as inflammatory and off topic. I would like historical, scientific and real world experience with apex predators, that habitually stalk humans. Those who have knowledge and experience with habitual stock killers as well since the phenomena is similar in nature. Reasons animals turn this way can often be discovered when the animal is brought down. Injuries, age and such are factors. But some just do it because they seem to like it. It's an interesting if a bit morbid and gruesome topic. I'm quite interested in hearing some good commentary.

BTW you asked for objective commentary and this is somewhat subjective so the mods can decide if they want to keep it or not. Regarding the 25000 for the cubs and only 5000 for the family, that's misanthropy, plain and simple. I've had years of education and experience with wildlife conservation, etc. and am also a (responsible and sane) pet owner (dog) but in no way does any of this supercede my connection with people, and I know a lot of people in the same boat. I think that a lot of this starts with people whose only exposure to nature is through Animal Planet or wildlife watching in their backyard. Years of social dysfunction cause people to become misanthropic and begin to reject people on their terms, and then backfill that void with a connection to wild or domestic animals. Sad but what can you do besides hope it doesn't grow.
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