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Barred owls are not native to Oregon. They weren't found west of the Cascade Range until the late 1960s. They compete with spotted owls and sometimes kill them, and they are a very common species. They can thrive in all types of forests.
Not sure exactly what ODFW is doing but on the federal level they have been doing experimental killing, to see whether its effective for protecting spotted owls.
Don't environmentalists study Darwin? DO they learn NOTHING? DO they think it only applies to some former time? Do they think predominant species never change in nature, and never should? This is survival of the fittest in action. A weaker species is facing competition from a stronger one. The stronger species expands its range. The weaker species must adapt or they will diminish.
Trying to artificially change that result is fundamentally anti-science.
I have lived my whole life in Western WA and never seen a spotted owl. We do though, commonly see and hear Barred Owls. That's not because of logging and it's not something Barred owls should be faulted for. They're just doing better in this environment right now.
I get so angry when I hear about projects to kill Barred Owls simply because they may be better suited than spotted owls to actually live and thrive here.
Don't environmentalists study Darwin? DO they learn NOTHING? DO they think it only applies to some former time? Do they think predominant species never change in nature, and never should? This is survival of the fittest in action. A weaker species is facing competition from a stronger one. The stronger species expands its range. The weaker species must adapt or they will diminish.
Trying to artificially change that result is fundamentally anti-science.
I have lived my whole life in Western WA and never seen a spotted owl. We do though, commonly see and hear Barred Owls. That's not because of logging and it's not something Barred owls should be faulted for. They're just doing better in this environment right now.
I get so angry when I hear about projects to kill Barred Owls simply because they may be better suited than spotted owls to actually live and thrive here.
I guess you missed the part about barred owls not being native to the west coast. There were none in western Washington until the late 1960s. The first one was reported at the Colonial Creek Campground on the North Cascades highway in 1967, IIRC.
Although we may never know the exact mechanism or reasons behind it, the best explanation I've seen to date suggests that their westward movement across the mountains was facilitated by logging because they thrive in disturbed areas, sort of like deer ticks and Lyme disease have expanded their range in the eastern US with habitat and climate disturbance.
Last edited by Deserterer; 03-22-2021 at 10:40 PM..
I guess you missed the part about barred owls not being native to the west coast. There were none in western Washington until the late 1960s. The first one was reported at the Colonial Creek Campground on the North Cascades highway in 1967, IIRC.
What makes the response to this "invasion" problematic is that barred owls are native to N America. They were not introduced by man. Their expansion across the continent has been a naturally occurring one...OK, maybe accelerated by human settlement and modification of continental habitats. Not only did human settlement introduce trees to the mid continent that created expansion corridors for owls bridging what used to be a barrier...treeless prairies, but once they did reach the west coast they arrived to find forest management practices had created habitats that favored them; a double whammy. So, is their expansion a natural event, a direct result of human action, or a hybrid of both? That uneasy grey area, neither black nor white.
The spotted owl was effectively isolated from competition with barred owls up until recently so it probably became less competitive with such a close relative. Isolation didn't do them many favors. They are less aggressive, more specialized. Now they are threatened by a more successful native species. The dilemma becomes...let the chips fall where they may and let spotted owls sink or swim, or try to hold some artificial line in the sand. That may not be sustainable. F&G agencies are left with a dilemma: one camp demanding that spotted owls be preserved at all costs, and another camp demanding that a natural ecological trend be allowed to proceed.
What makes the response to this "invasion" problematic is that barred owls are native to N America. They were not introduced by man. Their expansion across the continent has been a naturally occurring one...OK, maybe accelerated by human settlement and modification of continental habitats. Not only did human settlement introduce trees to the mid continent that created expansion corridors for owls bridging what used to be a barrier...treeless prairies, but once they did reach the west coast they arrived to find forest management practices had created habitats that favored them; a double whammy. So, is their expansion a natural event, a direct result of human action, or a hybrid of both? That uneasy grey area, neither black nor white.
The spotted owl was effectively isolated from competition with barred owls up until recently so it probably became less competitive with such a close relative. Isolation didn't do them many favors. They are less aggressive, more specialized. Now they are threatened by a more successful native species. The dilemma becomes...let the chips fall where they may and let spotted owls sink or swim, or try to hold some artificial line in the sand. That may not be sustainable. F&G agencies are left with a dilemma: one camp demanding that spotted owls be preserved at all costs, and another camp demanding that a natural ecological trend be allowed to proceed.
Since I hadn't read up on the barred owl westward expansion theories in many years, I decided to do a little research last night. I came across a 2009 paper that I hadn't read. Range Expansion of Barred Owls, Part II: Facilitating Ecological Changes Kent B. Livezey The American Midland Naturalist, 2009, Vol.161 (2), p.323-349
They concluded that fire exclusion, extirpation of beavers, overhunting of elk and deer, tree planting and extirpation of bison all contributed to the growth of woody plants in the Great Plains, to varying degrees, and this likely led to them expanding their range west to the Rockies.
They don't agree with the previously mentioned and older idea that fragmentation/disturbance of western forests enabled or facilitated the expansion through the mountains, an idea that I have wondered about myself since barred owls do just fine in mature forest.
It is really the expansion across the plains that was enabled by human extirpation of native species and fire suppression. Once they got to the mountains there was nothing going to stop them from continuing their expansion west.
But if this is correct I still can't say that their expansion has been a natural one.
I didn’t miss anything, I just agree with it. Personally I think we better be very careful about killing off a very successful species simply because it’s doing better than another species that has been threatened for decades and is perhaps not capable of thriving in this environment. Nothing stays the same and I reject entirely the notion that we should try to prevent natural selection and evolution and migration of species. Really no matter why it happens. We are part of nature too. The important part of survival is adapting to the current environment... Whatever that is.
I didn’t miss anything, I just agree with it. Personally I think we better be very careful about killing off a very successful species simply because it’s doing better than another species that has been threatened for decades and is perhaps not capable of thriving in this environment. Nothing stays the same and I reject entirely the notion that we should try to prevent natural selection and evolution and migration of species. Really no matter why it happens. We are part of nature too. The important part of survival is adapting to the current environment... Whatever that is.
You don't seem to apply your principle of adapting to the environment to humans. Its because humans don't adapt to their environment and instead adapt the environment to ourselves, that these problems come up in the first place. You must also be equally defensive about the expansion of deer (and other) ticks with their transmittable diseases, the emerald ash borer, Asian giant hornets, zebra mussels, gypsy moths...shall I go on?
I don't think you've read anything about Darwin other than the catchphrase "survival of the fittest" and I don't think you understand that either. Invasive species disrupt the process of evolution and natural selection for native species. Its like going up against a boxer on steroids. There's nothing natural about it.
Oh I have read it. I just disagree with you that evolution is not still happening. I think it is.
And I think sometimes it can be a bad thing… And sometimes it can be a benefit. And sometimes there just isn’t anything we can or should do about it.
But I don’t think you’re actually interested in a real discussion about this so I won’t put any more into it. Good day!
Oh I have read it. I just disagree with you that evolution is not still happening. I think it is.
Evolution occurs no matter what, given enough time. Spotted owls appear to be getting quieter, probably in response to aggression from barred owls. But that's not likely to be successful over evolutionary time because they use their calls for a variety of essential life functions.
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And I think sometimes it can be a bad thing… And sometimes it can be a benefit. And sometimes there just isn’t anything we can or should do about it.
I don't follow you. Are you still talking about evolution? It can be a bad thing? You must be talking about invasive species, and you think they can sometimes be a benefit. But I'm not sure. How would barred owls be a benefit? To who or what? I agree they are cool birds, one of my favorites actually. Emerald ash borer is a very cool beetle too. But...
Quote:
But I don’t think you’re actually interested in a real discussion about this so I won’t put any more into it. Good day!
I'm happy to discuss it. Perhaps you are like Colorado, which has given up on trying to stop the spread of emerald ash borer, and you would like to give up on trying to stop the barred owl from helping wipe out the spotted owl. The difference as I see it is that EAB isn't threatening to wipe out any endangered species like the barred owl is.
I suspect what you really want is to see old growth forests open to more logging, and you see spotted owls as unimportant and standing in the way. Correct me if I'm wrong. But as was touched on earlier, spotted owl habitat is important for other ecological reasons that just spotted owls.
I guess you missed the part about barred owls not being native to the west coast. There were none in western Washington until the late 1960s. The first one was reported at the Colonial Creek Campground on the North Cascades highway in 1967, IIRC.
Although we may never know the exact mechanism or reasons behind it, the best explanation I've seen to date suggests that their westward movement across the mountains was facilitated by logging because they thrive in disturbed areas, sort of like deer ticks and Lyme disease have expanded their range in the eastern US with habitat and climate disturbance.
The only people indigenous to N America was? As in non-native.
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