Ben Nelson is ticking me off. (Madison, Franklin: lawyers, purchasing, law school)

[itsMeFred]

Cutting edge stuff, we're almost always at the top. No arguments.
But the vast majority of us don't need cutting edge.

We just don't want to have to worry whether or not another round of lithotripsy for re-curring kidney stones is going to bankrupt us. (Assuming we have insurance despite a pre-existing condition, that is)

[itsMeFred]

My sister in law is pregnant with baby number one. They currently live in Ireland and she has repeatedly said how thankful she is that she's going to be doing prenatals and delivery in a country that has universal health care.
"We couldn't afford it if we were in the States."

I had a good friend in Canada when I had my first (took us several years to get him paid for. We always joked that ___ more payments and the boy was ours!) But she expressed pity on more than one occasion that we had to pay so much out of pocket for a completely routine labor and delivery.
BTW, yes, we were insured.

[MICHAEL J]

I understand your points Fred.

At some point though, most of us will need critical care and we can only get that here in the US. We have insurance issues that need addressed no doubt, but a takeover by the government is not the answer. I too have pre-conditions and since I'm self-employed don't have the luxury of employer provided insurance. Even so I don't expect someone else to pay for my insurance coverage or my
medical care.

I've got friends and business associates in Canada that pay extremely high taxes for their "free" health care. And for most routine situations they are satisfied with the care they receive as long as they are willing to wait. However, for critical care, or even the hint of something serious they travel to the US, even for diagnosis rather than stand in line in Canada.

We made payments for about two years in order to pay the hospital when our first son was born. He's nearly 40 and I still joke with him that I was always afraid they were going to repossess him.

[mattpoulsen]

Nitemare,

You were the one who started with the personal attacks. You know, the whole comment about "[you're] sure [i] have healthcare," suggesting I am one of the elitists who doesn't understand the struggles everyone else faces.

As far as healthcare goes, no, I'm not interested in the European models. The US dominates in terms of medical advancements. Without the capitalist system applied to healthcare much of the healthcare you now demand for free wouldn't exist. Why do you think places like Canada even have modern healthcare? Answer: because us greedy Americans developed it.

I also laugh at the idea that you think it would be free. People talk about how it would be nice not to have to pay so much out of pocket for routine procedures. Hmm, what do you think will happen to your tax rate in a country with universal healthcare?? Taxes will sky rocket and innovation and service will plummet. Other countries can get away with it because most breakthroughs are taking place in that evil capitalist country the United States. I would also add that if France spent as much money on their military as the United States then they probably wouldn't be providing universal healthcare either.

As far as higher standards of living and infant mortality rates go, that has much less to do with healthcare access and much much more to do with societal differences. We have more violence, more drugs, and a broader spectrum of people. Poverty is the problem, not access to healthcare. Those who are impoverished already have access to pre-natal care. Do you think having universal healthcare will make any difference in that regard? No! Get them jobs and lower taxers, that is how to fix the problem. Strapping the producers in this country with a larger burden will only compound the problem.

[Nitemarehippy]

Matt-

I think Czechland lake has some pretty decent spots. Around the Fremont area, the private Angler's Club, but the Fremont State Lakes are pretty good too. A Rapala lure and some patience will achieve your goal.

[Nitemarehippy]

If you can get past their liberal bias, Damn Public Broadcasting, this is a pretty informative view of other capitialist nation's health care. It shows the good and the bad. It's kinda long but worth the watch.

[itsMeFred]

Michael,

And for most routine situations they are satisfied with the care they receive as long as they are willing to wait.

Truly--How is this any different than in most of the US?
I'm on several forums with a large number of Canadians. I've met very few who aren't happier with their health care than we Americans are with ours... (Brits are slightly more likely to complain, but still nothing like here.)

Even so I don't expect someone else to pay for my insurance coverage or my
medical care.

How is this possible? Either taxes are going to skyrocket (and we'll all end up paying more), or they won't and "someone else" will pay for our coverage.
It can't be both ways...

matt,

Why do you think places like Canada even have modern healthcare? Answer: because us greedy Americans developed it.

You might be over-inflating our importance just a smidge...

Those who are impoverished already have access to pre-natal care

Very true.
It's the folks who are in the middle that are the problem. Too low to be able to swing self-pay insurance premiums (which can be a big ding to the budget every month), but too "rich" to qualify for Medicaid.
Friend of mine calls it "piddle class." We're definitely not middle class, but we're not poor either. We're "piddle class." lol

Hmm, what do you think will happen to your tax rate in a country with universal healthcare?? Taxes will sky rocket

Not very likely, actually. Like I said, we already pay way more than any other country on the planet for our health care. But, because it is so convoluted and complex, we get far less bang for our buck.

A good picture of how we stack up:


U.S. Health Spending Breaks From the Pack - Economix Blog - NYTimes.com

And the one showing per capita:

[mattpoulsen]

Nitemare,

Don't misunderstand my overall position. I'm not a hard core republican, not even close. I argue with left wingers as I do with right wingers. I do, however, simply believe that deep government involvement in healthcare will screw us. I simply don't trust the government and have little reason to change that stance. I would be railing against it just as much if this were a republican issue. That same philosophical stance also leads me to support gay marriage rights. I may seem like a contradiction but I'm not. I simply want the least amount of government as possible. My view is that the government should exist simply to protect the people, not provide for them. And, yes, that sometimes means regulating and industry so consumers are not getting hosed. That's what I would like to see happen first. However, I don't like the idea of robin hooding and I felt like that when I was one of the poor. I also am very worried about the next step. Once supplying universal healthcare is part of the government's police power there is very little the government wouldn't be able to do. Basically, anything involving human health would be an issue that could be regulated by the government and administered by some future federal agency.

Fred,

Ya, I'll admit that i overstated the US's role in R&D. But the bottom line is we are the global leaders in medical research and development. And to a significant degree many of the universal healthcare countries get a free ride. This is much in the same way as Canada, France, Germany, Japan and etc. receive a free ride in terms of military spending.

I do also think spending will sky rocket if the government controls healthcare. Your analysis is flawed in my view for a few reasons. 1) We do have the most "up to date" treatments available which tend to skew prices upward; 2) Americans also, almost as a culture, are over treated and medicated; 3) We are much much less healthy than many of the countries listed due to our unhealthy eating and exercise habits; 4) We are a much more violent culture than many of those countries, including person on person violence and also things such as automobile accidents and 4) You are forgetting about government inefficiency and are assuming the same level of efficiency in a private system and the hypothetical government system.

I just think that the US is different. We have a different culture, we have a different spectrum of people and we have a different governmental system. In a homogenized small country such as Switzerland it probably can be ran relatively efficiently. I simply see government healthcare being just as disastrous as any other program the government touches.

At any rate, Nitemare, as you mentioned before this is simply a difference in ideology. Nothing you say will change my mind and nothing I say will change your mind. So I'll just leave it at that.

[Nitemarehippy]

Matt-

I understand your position. My gay father lives in the same paradigm as you, he is as fiscally conservative as they come. He believes in small government with less regulation and intrusion (as he would put it) into American's lives. He is also not a contridiciton, it's just how he thinks.

Anything I said against you is not to make you feel guilty, but to let you know, not everyone has what you have. A diagnosis of a disease can set a lower class family back to the stone ages. I have had the good fortune to travel around the world and be part of different communities thousands of miles from where I grew up. And you know what? We are not that different. We are human beings. All of us.

Once again, I understand your overall position. You are very intelligent and argue your point very well. I just don't agree with you.

Fred, you are the man.

[itsMeFred]

Sorry Nightmare.

I am the woman.