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I live in Camden County NJ, just outside of Philadelphia.
I too am looking to move, and New Hampshire is near the top of my list.
The thing that attracts me to NH is the fact that you can actually get home on a fairly large piece of property that still has trees on it. I don't want to see or hear my neighbors.
The thing that scares the hell out of me is property taxes. The biggest reason I haven't purchased a home in NJ (I still rent) is because the property taxes are totally out of control. Some day, when I retire, I don't want to be getting hammered with a 6K-12K a year property tax bill.
I was looking over the data from http://www.taxfoundation.org/ and it appears that if you consider property taxes as a percentage of home value and also as a percentage of income, the #1 worst place to live for property taxes is NJ. #2 happens to be NH.
The other concern is that we're in the middle of a housing downturn where property values are depressed. What happens when the economy comes back and property values rise?
Since NH doesn't really have any other source of revenue other than property taxes, how do I know that in 20 years, my taxes won't be even higher than NJ?
The low car insurance is made up for by the cost of vehicle registration. It's almost a wash. Property taxes can be high. I'm paying that same as I did in NJ. But the property is larger so I don't mind.
That has not been my experience. When I moved to NH, the insurance on our two cars went from $2400 to $1200. In MA we paid both for the registration and an excise tax. In NH, it is just one. It is more in NH, but is not $1200... If you have teenage drivers, it is much worse in MA than in NH....
And if you buy a car for $20,000 in MA, you'll pay $21,250 including the sales tax compared to $20,000 in NH.
My car insurance in NJ was not as bad as many. With multiple discounts and eventually switching to NJ Manufacturers, my new car was $900 for full coverage with a low deductible. Registration was less than $50 per car (2004 - higher now) and no fee for inspection. NH - $1357 for two cars and a newer MC. Car ownership is not more expensive but certainly no cheaper than it was in NJ. Failing yo factor costs over the life of the vehicle gives faulty results.
Car insurance is reasonable because no kids factored in. With young drivers on the policy those rates would go up considerably no doubt.
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6K-12K a year property tax bill.
I'd be happy paying 6k. Unless you are out in the middle of nowhere, factor in a real estate tax bill in that area. I'd say in today's market 6k in the norm for a newer home.
I
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don't want to see or hear my neighbors.
I'm a few hundred feet from me neighbor. I can clearly hear him. It's quiet and sound travels.
I'd be happy paying 6k. Unless you are out in the middle of nowhere, factor in a real estate tax bill in that area. I'd say in today's market 6k in the norm for a newer home.
It's not normal for the rest of the country. But that's what I'm seeing from my real estate searches in NH. I have no idea how someone could ever retire in NH unless they have a fairly decent pension, which pretty much eliminates my whole generation. Pensions just don't exist anymore. We're lucky if we get a 401k these days. Eventually, something in NH will have to change or everyone will just move away except the extremely rich and the extreme poor (who can't afford to leave). Where I live in NJ, droves of people are retiring to places like Florida, the Carolinas, or even Delaware.
The thing that I don't get is that there are plenty of places where you can live where the property tax + income tax are still less than property tax alone in NH. Plus, they must be getting a ton of money from retail sales when residents from adjacent states cross the border to shop. What the heck is NH doing with all the money?
I'd pack up and move to NH right now if the property taxes were more reasonable. Where I'm at in NJ, taxes are about the same and I have to pay income tax on top of it, but at least there's jobs that pay a lot of money to off-set the taxes. I'm not seeing that in NH unless you're willing to work in the Boston area. But in that case, you're paying income taxes to Massachusetts, so I don't see the point.
You want low property taxes you move to an area that is more secluded and offers less in services. If you want to live on the ocean in what is essentially a suburb of Boston, you are going to pay more. The bulk of the tax goes to the school systems. Larger towns have the need. Move way up north and one regional school can handle several towns. you have no police and little in the way of emergency services. Self sufficiency is the norm.
You want NJ conveniences with no cost? Not going to happen. What I would pay in NJ in state taxes more than covers my 7k in real estate taxes which is a Federal tax write off.
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but at least there's jobs that pay a lot of money
Unfortunately they are leaving the state in mass. More in the state are getting entitlements than actually helping to support the state. Sitting back and letting the state pay one to sit home became a way of life for too many. When they get that under control, the state may return to financial health.
Lastly, what you would pay for a decent home and property in NH would get you a shack in NJ. Even today the prices are way out of line.
Thank you for your reply.
I'm really glad I found this site and I appreciate your candor.
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Originally Posted by rscalzo
You want low property taxes you move to an area that is more secluded and offers less in services. If you want to live on the ocean in what is essentially a suburb of Boston, you are going to pay more. The bulk of the tax goes to the school systems. Larger towns have the need. Move way up north and one regional school can handle several towns. you have no police and little in the way of emergency services. Self sufficiency is the norm.
Unfortunately, from what I've found, even in the northern parts of New Hampshire, the property tax rates aren't *that* much lower. Plus, there's no jobs. I guess it might be better for retirement since you don't need a job. It seems that the southern half of NH is in part subsidized by people who have high paying jobs in Massachusetts. Basically, a Boston suburb. Are there any municipalities in NH with zero schools? I don't have children and don't plan to any time soon.
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Originally Posted by rscalzo
You want NJ conveniences with no cost? Not going to happen.
Conveniences? LOL. You mean like oppressive traffic and crime? The only things that NJ has to offer are beaches and jobs. As far as I can figure, that's the only reasons anyone lives here. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not asking for anything free. I'm just trying to understand how people can afford to retire in NH because I think I would like to do that some day.
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Originally Posted by rscalzo
What I would pay in NJ in state taxes more than covers my 7k in real estate taxes which is a Federal tax write off.
The problem I have is that is great while you're working, but once you retire, I assume you won't have the same income coming in, however your property tax will stay the same. Assuming you retire at 65 and live to 85, you'll need to have $140,000 set aside just to cover your property taxes for those 20 retirement years, assuming the taxes don't go up even more.
I wasn't aware that you could write off real estate taxes on your Federal return. Good to know. However, "writing off" something doesn't get you the money back, it just lowers your total income for federal tax purposes. So depending on what tax bracket you're in, it might only amount to a few hundred dollars in tax savings.
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Originally Posted by rscalzo
Unfortunately they are leaving the state in mass. More in the state are getting entitlements than actually helping to support the state. Sitting back and letting the state pay one to sit home became a way of life for too many. When they get that under control, the state may return to financial health.
The exact same thing is happening in NJ. Public worker pensions and health care costs are bankrupting the state. Also, our school spending is out of control. We have 21 counties but almost 600 school districts. Each school district has a superintendent, many of which make more money than our state governor. Plus each district has lots of administrators and other people below the superintendents that also command large salaries. Then, they retire with generous pensions and move to Florida where NJ doesn't see any of the money back in the economy.
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Originally Posted by rscalzo
Lastly, what you would pay for a decent home and property in NH would get you a shack in NJ. Even today the prices are way out of line.
The houses themselves are not that much different. I'm looking at houses in NH around $300K. A similar home will run you around $400K in NJ as long as you're not looking too close to NYC. The big difference is the amount of LAND that comes with it. In NJ, you're lucky to get 1/4 acre. In NH, the places I'm looking at are 2-10 acres. Heck, there's a huge house I was looking at in NH about 40 minutes north of Manchester that was on 50 acres for $300K. However the taxes were almost $17K a year.
On a 50 x 100 lot. 40 minutes north of Manchester is in the middle of the lakes region and right near Lake winni, some of the most expensive real estate in the state. you wonder why taxes are high?
Any decent jobs will be an hour and a half south. Traffic in the morning is not fun.
Maybe NH isn't for you and you would be better off looking elsewhere. You want a guarantee and no one is going to give you that..Nothing is in writing that in the future there won't be sales and a income tax. It's been brought up before.
This link should be of help to you regarding the equalized tax rate differential between towns in NH.
http://www.nh.gov/revenue/munc_prop/documents/2009taxratereport.doc (broken link)
On a 50 x 100 lot. 40 minutes north of Manchester is in the middle of the lakes region and right near Lake winni, some of the most expensive real estate in the state. you wonder why taxes are high?
Any decent jobs will be an hour and a half south. Traffic in the morning is not fun.
If I moved to NH, I think I might want to live around Danville and try to work in Manchester. That seems do-able.
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Originally Posted by rscalzo
Maybe NH isn't for you and you would be better off looking elsewhere. You want a guarantee and no one is going to give you that..Nothing is in writing that in the future there won't be sales and a income tax. It's been brought up before.
From your tone, I sense that I'm not coming across properly in my posts. It's probably the New Jersey in me, and for that I apologize. I'm not criticizing NH, I'm trying to convince myself that moving there would be the right thing to do. Sometimes, that involves dragging out all the scary bits on the table and trying to get a good look at the whole picture so that you can compare apples to oranges and make an informed decision.
I don't have a problem with income tax since it scales with your income. Once you retire and your income becomes less, your taxes become less. Technically, this is probably the LEAST fair way to tax since people are rewarded for having a low income, shifting the tax burden to the younger workforce and the wealthy.
I also don't have a problem with a sales tax since that's actually the most fair way to tax. People who consume more items and/or more expensive items pay more. Personally, I think all taxes should be consumption taxes. If the state wants money to fix the roads, tax gasoline and/or car sales. If the state needs money for the schools, tax people who have school age children. For more general things like police, fire, and other basic services, use a state-wide sales tax.
If NH implemented both sales and income tax, and lowered their property taxes accordingly, I'd be totally OK with that.
But even if things stay exactly the way they are, I guess as long as I worked in NH instead of Boston, and socked away money for retirement taxes, I guess I'd be ok. That must be what other people do. I think if I was married and had another income source, it wouldn't seem so scary.
My original plan was to someday move to a place where dividend income from my stock investments would cover my property tax. I'd have to have a hell of a lot of investments to get sufficient dividends to pay either NJ or NH property taxes. Plus NH taxes dividend income 5%, making that idea even less of a good idea.
Does NH have any kind of property tax relief for seniors? I know a many other states do.
wkrick.....check out Maine. Close to the same lifestyle as NH. It might fit your needs better in the long run since in general they have lower property taxes.
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