Considering moving to Lebanon, NH from TN for Dartmouth...advice?
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Also, what is the general mindset of the area? To be brief, my fiance and I are both educated and in our mid-twenties, and would like to live in an area that encourages and fosters education and advancement, but at the same time we are accustomed to some of the southern "ways of life" regarding our personal rights such as lax gun laws and personal freedom, which we do not want to give up.
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While college towns tend to be more left-liberal (aka "progressive") than the rest of New Hampshire, due to statewide preemption on weapons laws, local mindset on firearms can't have too much impact on your your personal freedoms.
I'm not saying that "personal freedom" is always a dog whistle for "marijuana enforcement", but New Hampshire is behind the rest of New England on relaxing enforcement and MM laws.
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Originally Posted by tnvol12
A couple other questions and I'm sure this is asked a ton but...how bad are the winters really? My dad grew up in western upstate NY and I've heard all of the horror stories of the snow piling up above the tops of the buses.
Central NH winter is bad; but not as bad as some people will claim. Mostly they are long, cold, and snowy, and power outages (often for hours, up to several days) are not unusual.
Last year was particularly intense, so you'll hear more horror stories now than usual. I'd recommend visiting in late February to see for yourself.
For better or worse, the two biggest influences in the economy here are Dartmouth and its Medical Center. Get used to the fact that it's kind of a small community otherwise. When we moved here, we learned about the "Upper Valley Shrug" in which you look over both shoulders before saying something that could be perceived as negative about someone, since there's a good chance they are next to you.
Regarding winters... sometimes it helps to have context. You will almost certainly want to have snow tires. But that and patience will get you pretty far. Comparing to other places I've lived that have had winter.... there's less snow than upstate NY, and nowhere near as cold as Minnesota. And most people do have some idea of how to drive in the winter (although the first snowstorm is always an unpleasant refresher for many people), so it's in some cases better than the South that way (when I lived in Oak Ridge, TN, the standard response to 1/4" of snow or ice was apparently to crash into the nearest tree).
And the vast majority of people up here embrace winter. It's pleasant, it looks pretty, and there's plenty of opportunity for skiing (especially, as a local, midweek evening skiing is cheap), snowshoeing, skating, and the like. And I hire someone to plow my driveway (consider this unless you have a trivial driveway to shovel), and because of that, I have basically zero "outdoors" maintenance in the winter.
Traffic? People here that are native or have lived here for a while complain about it (particularly, the shift change at DHMC snarls up Exit 18 to the point it backs up on the highway.... but only from ~7:50 to 8:05 or so every morning) and the occasional busy time at Exit 20, we don't really have traffic. I work right by DHMC. My drive is 16.5 miles. It takes me 19 minutes. And where I live (Grantham) I have a nice 4.5 acre spread with hundreds of maples trees and only $4500 in taxes (yeah, that's appalling compared to some other places I've lived... but considering I pay only a few hundred in Interest and Dividends tax and no sales tax, I'll take it. And it's dead quiet at night.
Mind you, if it's after 10pm, there's no gas station anywhere nearby. And the nearest grocery store is ~16 miles away. And the restaurants are all "in town" (Lebanon area or Newport to the south). And it can be, well, a bit rednecky at times. But still, it's pleasant.
And I know plenty of people that have a house with more than a bit of land that live even closer in than I do (the Povertly Lane/Cross Road area of Lebanon, or in the hills of NE Lebanon).
DHMC has a really strong community as well, and they run a lot of nice programs for employees (my partner works for the College and has access to many of the same benefits), like the occasional subsidized bus trip to Boston or Montreal, restaurant outings, happy hours, etc.
The people that don't do well are the people that move here expecting it to (a) not have any winter, and (b) be like whatever suburb or city they came from. It's not really either. But it's quite an enjoyable place to live if you can deal with the rural winter aspects.
Winters are horrible so just get used to it and learn to love it. You're not too far from ski areas so you'll have plenty to do in winter. Learn to deal with it and to love it. Stock up before winter in case you can't get out-- and learn to winterize your house to keep the cold out (a little bit). Have a fireplace or a woodstove.
Get the best winter clothes you can afford; you won't regret it. L.L. Bean boots maybe and a great down jacket. Gloves, scarves. Line up someone to plow your driveway. Just be ready for winter and then you'll enjoy it--to a degree.
You'll have a bit of a learning curve and in some ways it's like going back in time, learning all the tried and true ways we New Englanders have accumulated over the ages. Get a generator but don't use it in the house.
Learn to drive in snow--meaning don't use the brakes if it's icy or if you go into a skid. If your car is swerving into a skid, turn the wheel into the direction of the curve. Keep blankets and other supplies in your car. It's just general survival stuff that you'll have to learn the first year. I'm sure people will help you.
I would be very excited to be moving there with so much to do and such natural beauty. Winters? Get used to it. Bundle up.
One thing to keep an eye on is property taxes. They vary a LOT town to town and will effect rents just as much as home-ownership. no sales tax in NH is a double edged sword as I found that NH nickle and dime'd you to a heavy degree to make up for it. Car registration is a good example—you won't pay sales tax on your car, but your first 2 or 3 years of car registration will cost as much as sales tax would have.
NH & VT have some of the most lenient gun laws in the country and there are plenty of gun clubs around for shooting. Outside of a Hanover cocktail party you won't find much resistance to responsible gun owners.
Learn to drive in the now, get snow tires, be prepared. It's really not that difficult, it just takes some experience and patience. The first vehicles you see off the roads during a storm usually have plates from "away" as skiers headed north tend to have too much faith in their big, fancy, all wheel drive SUV's and not enough understanding of physics. Meanwhile, a local in an average sedan on snow tires just plods to and from work every day without drama regardless of the weather. Take your time and you'll be fine.
I've lived in NH & VT my whole life so I don't think of our winters as particularity harsh but that's all subjective. It is what it is and most folks don't let winter "own" them. Outside of the very, very worst storms we don't let snow keep us housebound. It's nearly 60 degrees this week so after last years heavy snows we are getting a mild winter so far... we'll see what it's like in February. We do not get lake-effect snow like western NY so even a "big snow" year isn't that crazy. This year is an El Nino year so it's forecasted to be wet and warmer than average. So far, that is true.
Crime is mostly petty stuff and not common, many folks still don't lock there doors. Sadly, the 89/91 corridor is heroin-trafficker central between Montreal and Boston/NY/New Haven, and that has some pass-by effect. But for as much press as it gets, VT & NH's drug problems really aren't more terrible than anywhere else. It's an issue that everyone, everywhere is dealing with and hopefully we'll find a way to curb it at some point (I choose to remain positive on this subject)
Hi there. We've been living in New London, about 30 minutes down from DHMC for two years. We absolutely love it. I went to college in Vermont and all my life wanted to be back in the area.
On the hospital: DHMC is a world class medical facility. Class 1 Trauma Center, Medical School, Children's Hospital, Cancer Center, research center, you name it. All under one massive roof. It is modern, easy to get to, and serves Northern New England. In addition to DHMC, there is a large VA hospital that serves a large veteran community in the area and has close association with DHMC. Also, DHMC has been slowly taking over the many hospitals in the area or some of them being subserved into DHMC due to the resource-rich environment there. As a retired fed, I decided to use DHMC for my medical needs and my primary doctor is there. Also, the presence of Dartmouth University in the town lends an incredible Ivy League flavor to the area.
As to the area. First, the bad since you were talking about it previously. NH and VT are having a heroin crisis. It also has law enforcement overtones as Hanover/Lebanon is on the crossroads of two major interstate highways that provide for illicit trafficking between Canada and New York and Boston.
Also on the not so good. While Hanover is quite upscale, Lebanon and West Lebanon are not as gentrified and do have their crime incidents, although what's considered high in New Hampshire would cause loud laughter in most other places.
The not so good, continued: Housing prices tend to be high and there is a scarcity of affordable rentals, although I understand the Medical Center has a referral program. If you want to live in the immediate vicinity of Hanover, $500,000 is not probably at the lower end. However, you can get a three bedroom, two bath home on two or three acres within a 25 mile radius in places like Piermont, Danbury, Grafton, Lyme, Enfield, etc., starting at about $170,000 and you may not see your neighbors if you so desire.
Lastly on the bad side but I call it the good side too: Winters are severe - main reason why we're here by the way.
On the good side:
New Hampshire ranks as one of the top three states as to quality of life. Our crime rate in many towns approaches the statistically insignificant. Medical access is widespread and high quality. The population is one of the top 5 in educational levels in the country.
The area is an outdoors paradise. The Appalachian Trail runs literally through Hanover, with a Starbucks 25 feet from the trail. It is an outdoors town. The Northern Rail Trail is a kick-butt 58 mile rail-to-trail from Lebanon to almost Concord, which I did this past summer. You're 15 minutes from the Lakes Region with boating, kayaking, canoeing, you name it. You're also on the Connecticut River with canoe/kayak trips possible. Then there's the hiking or snowshoeing. Mount Cardigan is quite near Hanover and so is Ragged Mountain and Mt Sunapee, and if you want strenuous, world class hiking, the Presidentials are scantly an hour away, requiring either good hiking experience or in the Winter, everything including crampons and other survival gear. Hiking Mount Washington is a dream come true. Also on the hiking, the SKRG (Sunapee, Kearsarge and Ragged Mountain Greenway) is a 75-mile loop through the mountains in the Lakes Region with spectacular views. Lastly, there are 19 alpine ski areas in New Hampshire, and another 19 in Vermont, including the Dartmouth Skiway that people associated with Dartmouth can ski for a dime and a song. Nordic skiing is also very popular here. Skiing and other Winter sports are a major part of the economy.
Good side: Because of the emphasis on outdoors, people here also tend to be fit and healthier than the general population in other places. And the abundance of Eastern Mountain Sports and LL Bean stores is evident.
Good side: No income tax.
Good side: No sales tax.
Good side: Very politically diverse population. Yes, there are recalcitrant liberals and conservatives like everywhere. But overall, there is way more dialogue and civilized conversation here than I found in the Mid Atlantic. You'll be shopping and see a Bernie Sanders bumper sticker on a car parked next to another one displaying a Trump sticker.
Good side: Access to your government. Our capitol is still open to the public, you just go in and talk to your representatives. Both VT and NH have the Town Meeting concept of direct democracy in much of it. Our town just reversed a decision of the town selectmen at our last town meeting. And talking to your town or county or state officials is as easy as walking into their offices and chatting.
Good side, since you asked. Winters are good and severe with a lot of snow. But we've got more snow-free highways than anywhere else. The snow removal here is about the best I've seen. The DHMC area is as I said before, at the crossroads of I-91 and I-93 so going places is easy.
Good side: If you like hunting, you are in a good place. Boar, deer, moose, bear, etc etc etc. And fishing is superb due to the abundance of rivers and lakes.
Good side: Water quality in most of the state is superb. Most of the lakes are Category 1, the water is potable. There is some interference by the different lake protective associations as to ensuring your watercraft has been cleaned off, especially if it was used at a lake afflicted with milfoil, an invasive plant.
Other interesting quirks: Although there are plenty of churches, Vermont is the state with the lowest church attendance in the nation. And New Hampshire is second lowest. Religion is really not a huge topic of conversation in these two states.
Firearms: As someone already stated, New Hampshire is quite lax. A concealed permit is easy to get although there is a background check. Next door in Vermont, they have the "Vermont Carry" where you can carry, open, concealed, or whatever.
Snow in western NY is substantially worse than anyplace in NH. Having said that, last year was a pretty rough winter and the snow was pretty horrible. Not Rochester/Buffalo horrible but not too fun either.
In general the 'badness' of winter has more to do with cold weather and short days than snow typically. This year (so far) has been great as far as cold weather but the short days remain a certainty.
In essentially all of NH, traffic is not a major concern most of the time..but it can be somewhat painful, in very localized areas sometimes. Roads near the major malls are horrible during christmas shopping season. Some of the major roads heading into MA are bad during typical commute hours - though typically the # of miles of badness on the NH portion of a commute is very small.
As for traffic in the DHMC area - I suspect you can find a place to live where traffic won't be bad. The interstate in that area rarely has traffic (and when it does, it would tend to be more related to leaf peeping season than commutes). However, the main 'drag' just off the highway in Lebanon for about 1-2 miles on either side of the interstate can get pretty bad during peak hours with the combination of local shoppers and people getting off highway for food before entering the vast wasteland that is VT (don't get me wrong - I love VT and visit quite a bit but there is effectively nothing to eat near the highway that you can count on for at least an hour after crossing the border in that area).
Being willing to take up skiing or other outdoor activity in the winter will help it 'go faster'. There are certainly people who would help you learn to ski. We've also had a group that did some cross country skiing/biathlon shooting events last year which was pretty fun.
If you are looking for a time to visit NH In general, I might suggest Feb - You'll get to see winter at its worst which is valuable to make sure you are up for it. Fly into Manchester, NH and visit the nhlibertyforum.com Feb 18th - 21st - You'll get to meet a lot of interesting people. There is also a gun show at the hotel that same weekend. Manchester is the largest city so you'll get a sense of what we mean when we say large city in NH (we mean small).
It is about an hour to Lebanon.
Note as for finding a house with some land - I don't think you'll need to be all that far from DHMC - I would guess you can find some reasonable land within a 15-30 minute commute.
Finally, although there is a lot to like about the DHMC area, there are some great hospitals in Manchester (I know -- city) but within that same 15-30 minute commute you can also find large properties where you can probably setup a shooting range in your backyard and nobody will care.
Thank you all so much for all of the advice and information you all have provided on here. It has been extremely helpful! It seems like a great area and you all have given me a good direction on what to look for when I visit and have answered so many of my questions. Other than if someone preferred the city lifestyle (which I don't) over the rural or if they didn't like the snow (which I'm excited about) I can't imagine why most people wouldn't want to live there.
I'm sure I'll have some more questions, but for now, you all have been fantastic in helping me!
. . . or if they didn't like the snow (which I'm excited about) I can't imagine why most people wouldn't want to live there.
It's not really the snow that makes people not want to live here, it's the length of winter (this year is an exception, because it's been a really warm autumn, and they are predicting a warm(er) winter, so, at least in my eyes, "winter" is really late this year). It will last much longer than it does down in Tennessee. The days are much shorter in New Hampshire than in Tennessee during the winter:
I'm from Southern California, and the short days and low sun angle (I have no windows with southern exposure so I only have direct sun in my windows at sunrise) impact my Seasonal Affective Disorder quite a bit - something to keep in mind.
Leaves are off the trees starting in mid-November, and I don't feel like it's truly spring until flowers start blooming in mid-to-late April - leaves don't really start to appear until early-to-mid May. I generally have my heater on from late September through mid-to-late May even though I wear several layers of clothing indoors (yes, I am a wimp).
Winter is pretty (when there is snow) and fun for the first couple of months, but it just lasts too darn long for most of us, and that is really a large reason that a lot of people don't stay here.
Despite this, I love it here (I'm in southern New Hampshire) for a lot of the "good" reasons mentioned above. I've been here over 10 years now, and am happy I moved here.
It will be interesting to see what this winter acutally turns out to be. We'll get past the Solstice (shortest day, longest night) before the first real snow even hits most of us. I'm already looking forward to the days getting a little bit longer going forward.
DHMC does have a real estate office that will help you find a rental. There are listings on the website as well as other resources. My coworker used the office to help her when she moved from Hawaii to NH to work at DH and was very happy with the results.
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We do not get lake-effect snow like western NY so even a "big snow" year isn't that crazy. This year is an El Nino year so it's forecasted to be wet and warmer than average. So far, that is true.
