Paul Henle resumes the push for NH income tax (Concord: foreclosures, renting)

[KCZ]

Originally Posted by jdhpa

I don't think the type of tax really addresses this concern. The primary thing to control is how much money the government spends. The more it spends the more you're going to pay in taxes, no matter what form the taxes take. The less it spends the less you're going to pay in taxes.

While you're correct that leashing govt spending is important, the type of taxes which are levied is important as well. Retired homeowners are being hard-hit by our current tax structure.

[Nonesuch]

If we could just rein in pensions and school costs, property taxes could decrease.

Originally Posted by KCZ

While you're correct that leashing govt spending is important, the type of taxes which are levied is important as well. Retired homeowners are being hard-hit by our current tax structure.

While I would like to also be a retired homeowner someday, I find it difficult to feel too badly about their tax situation; it isn't like they couldn't see retirement coming

Originally Posted by sb2017

Adding a sales tax or income tax or any additional tax gets the nose under the tent. Property taxes may be reduced a little bit but history has proven in other states that is only a temporary reduction. Once any tax is there, it will always be raised. It's not reasonable to think NH government will not behave the same way.

I might support a statewide income tax if the rate was locked in the state constitution, and directly replaced multiple state-level taxes, including dividends & interest tax, the state's share of property tax, etc.

[jdhpa]

Increasing the property tax rebate for seniors would reduce their tax load, without creating a new bureaucracy that has to be funded.

Unfortunately, just reducing the tax rate on one set of people will increase it on others, and some of them will not be any better off financially than retirees are.

Something like making high schools online would lower costs (fewer teachers / administrators / buildings required), without reducing teacher salaries. That would lead to lower property taxes, and the savings could be skewed toward retirees. I don't think online elementary school would work, and middle school is a bit iffy, but high school would work.

Also, income taxes go down more than property or sales taxes during a recession, so it makes budgeting more difficult. I.e., sharp cuts during recessions, followed by balloon growth during recovery. Since cuts typically mean laying people off during recessions, I tend to prefer steadier sources of revenue than income taxes.

[KCZ]

Originally Posted by Nonesuch

While I would like to also be a retired homeowner someday, I find it difficult to feel too badly about their tax situation; it isn't like they couldn't see retirement coming

A) Many people don't see retirement coming if they become disabled or their jobs are eliminated.

B) No one in my town, retired or otherwise, saw a 43% increase in the property tax rate coming either until they got the tax bill in the mail.

Originally Posted by jdhpa

Something like making high schools online would lower costs (fewer teachers / administrators / buildings required), without reducing teacher salaries. That would lead to lower property taxes, and the savings could be skewed toward retirees. I don't think online elementary school would work, and middle school is a bit iffy, but high school would work.

Now that is a really interesting idea. Some combination of online and in-school classes could work, for example math could be taught online, but you'd still need science labs and in-school language classes. Some drawbacks would be a substantial startup expense, what to do with students who don't have high-speed internet access or whose parents both work and won't let the kids stay home alone all day, and how to manage bus schedules. I don't know how much money that would save though. A big chunk of school budgets is directed toward govt-mandated special ed classes.

[Nonesuch]

Originally Posted by KCZ

A) Many people don't see retirement coming if they become disabled or their jobs are eliminated.

Don't move the goalposts. Disability is not synonymous with retirement. I know what it's like for a job to be eliminated, that's part of what lead me to move to New Hampshire.

B) No one in my town, retired or otherwise, saw a 43% increase in the property tax rate coming either until they got the tax bill in the mail.

I'd like to know what town managed to get such a substantial tax rate increase through the process so stealthily that nobody saw it coming.

So they never attended either a deliberative session or a voting session, never read the articles up for a vote nor went to the polls, and never received a notice of preliminary assessment?

[KCZ]

Originally Posted by Nonesuch

Don't move the goalposts. Disability is not synonymous with retirement. I know what it's like for a job to be eliminated, that's part of what lead me to move to New Hampshire.


I'd like to know what town managed to get such a substantial tax rate increase through the process so stealthily that nobody saw it coming.

So they never attended either a deliberative session or a voting session, never read the articles up for a vote nor went to the polls, and never received a notice of preliminary assessment?

For some people, disability is synonymous with retirement.

The tax increase was a huge example of moving the goalposts. A large, expensive addition to the high school was deliberated and voted down many times until there was no choice but to pass it due to deferred maintenance and state regulations. Budgetary discussions revolved around the effect of the bond issue on taxes (~8% increase). Then when the tax bills appeared, there was an "Oh, BTW, didn't we mention all the other things that have driven up taxes?" Some causes were contractual obligations, which were not mentioned on top of the bond increase, but a big cause was a shift in student enrollments which can't be accurately predicted until the students show up in Sept. In the meantime, there was a town-wide property re-evaluation which did result in new assessments but was meaningless without an attached tax rate.

[Nonesuch]

Has any US state successfully used income tax to reduce property tax for any real duration? Looking at our fellow east-coast states, all they've achieved by giving the state government a new source of revenue is to increase resident's total tax burden over time.

Originally Posted by jdhpa

Increasing the property tax rebate for seniors would reduce their tax load, without creating a new bureaucracy that has to be funded.

Unfortunately, just reducing the tax rate on one set of people will increase it on others,,,

Two very good objections to adding a state income tax -- it creates a new bureaucracy and just changes how the money is collected and distributed (given more power to Concord in the process) with no incentive to reduce the money collected and spent.


One thing I like about most taxes being collected locally is that I can choose to live in a town which has adopted RSA 32:5, V-b, and I can choose to get involved in local politics and efforts to "zero appropriate" wasteful warrant articles. Or I could just gripe online when the tax bills come out.

Originally Posted by KCZ

For some people, disability is synonymous with retirement.

Rather than digress into edge cases (maybe 2.4% of the population), can we get back on topic?

Originally Posted by KCZ

Budgetary discussions revolved around the effect of the bond issue on taxes (~8% increase). Then when the tax bills appeared, there was an "Oh, BTW, didn't we mention all the other things that have driven up taxes?" Some causes were contractual obligations, which were not mentioned on top of the bond increase, but a big cause was a shift in student enrollments which can't be accurately predicted until the students show up in Sept. In the meantime, there was a town-wide property re-evaluation which did result in new assessments but was meaningless without an attached tax rate.

Care to name the poorly managed town you're talking about, or just keep us guessing?

[Bruins_Fan]

Originally Posted by Nonesuch

Care to name the poorly managed town you're talking about, or just keep us guessing?

This. Out the town.

[KCZ]

Canaan. We now have the 6th highest school tax rate in the state.

[nhkev]

I've lived in 5 states. New Hampshire was my favorite. Things like schools, roads, police, and fire depts. need to be funded. how they are funded is the question. I like property taxes being the funding source because it is not seen as an unlimited supply of money for politicians. they seem to realize by being linked to homes it forces them to be conservative in their spending. Once you add another tax source it is guaranteed that it will be another way to get money not save money. When I lived in New Hampshire my property taxes were $7800 a year. When I lived in Mass they were $7200 but I also had to pay 6% sales tax and 6% income tax which ended up being at least double what I paid in NH as a total tax burden. In Indiana I pay $9000 in property taxes, something like 3.5% state income and 1.5% county income then add a sales tax which I think is 6.5%. these rates did not start at their current rates they only went up... a little at a time.
The only thing I would say is if property taxes were becoming unreasonably high and a new tax source was needed , I would prefer a sales tax. at least with the sales tax you have the ability of having outsiders from other states help contribute. Florida does this as opposed to income tax and due to being a tourist destination they make billions a year in sales tax.