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Your children are young still, and Like NJGOAT says, the elementary system is good-great.
Most people dont understand that a schools performance (and to a lesser extent, ranking) is made up of the collection of individual students. And studies show the greatest statistical influence of a students performance is the mother's level of education. Collingswood has had an influx of young, educated couples over the last 10-15 years, so the collection of students that make up the Collingswood High School will have a noticeably different make up (family education level) by the time your children reach that age.
The issue with the high school goes far beyond the people who live in Collingswood, which is why I tend to hesitate to recommend it. I grew up in Collingswood and went through school there and my parents still live in the town. I can attest that the elementary schools are good to great and always have been. What's changed over the past decade though is the makeup of the other feeder towns that go to Collingswood High School.
Kids from Woodlynne attend Collingswood High School in grades 9-12 and kids from Oaklyn attend it in grades 10-12. Overall of the ~805 students in Collingswood High School, ~190 are from Woodlynne, ~120 are from Oaklyn and ~495 are from Collingswood, so only around 60% of the kids at the high school level are actually from Collingswood.
Overall, this is very different from when I went to Collingswood. Of the 140 kids in my graduating class, about 25 were from Oaklyn and 15 were from Woodlynne. So, the makeup has been sliding to a larger and larger proportion of kids that aren't from Collingswood with the biggest change coming from Woodlynne.
Now, Oaklyns makeup is a lot like what Collingswood was 10-15 years ago. Primarily blue collar with a smattering of professionals, spanning a decent income range. Oaklyn has stayed that way while Collingswood has been moving more towards the professional end with the influx of people drawn to the town.
The issue is Woodlynne which 10-15 years ago was a solid lower end blue collar town, akin to a Fairview in Camden. However, it has gradually been sliding downhill with increased crime rates and a large influx of people trying to escape Camden that can afford houses in Woodlynne. Adding on to that, Woodlynne is also a source of a lot of "anchor" kids where someones aunt or uncle owns a house in Woodlynne and they move in with them solely for the purpose of going to high school in Collingswood versus going to Camden.
Collingswood has long been dealing with the "Woodlynne Situation" as evidenced by the experiment in merging the police and fire departments, etc. The town would love to end the school relationship, but they can't do to the way those agreements work in NJ.
That is the issue with Collingswood schools and what has been dragging them down over the years in terms of reputation compared to the other towns in the area and all the educated and dedicated professionals aren't going to fix that, when over 20% of the school is basically coming from Camden. Now, that doesn't mean that you can't get a good education at Collingswood High. They have good teachers and good programs, just realize that not everyone your kid will be in school with is necessarily coming from the same educated socio-economic mindset. I'm only saying this because you seemed to believe that the recent influx of people to the town was going to mean the high school was going to turn around and I basically wouldn't hold my breath on that. Haddon Twp. schools appeal to a lot of people because it is basically what Collingswood schools would be, minus Woodlynne.
I'm only saying this because you seemed to believe that the recent influx of people to the town was going to mean the high school was going to turn around and I basically wouldn't hold my breath on that. Haddon Twp. schools appeal to a lot of people because it is basically what Collingswood schools would be, minus Woodlynne.
This can, very well, still be the case in the future. I just believe the solution is better sought by encouraging the young educated families of Collingswood to consider sending their children to Collingswood HS, en mas, instead of sending them out to Private schools in the area, moving their family to a "good school" district, or solve the problem by excluding the Woodlynne corner of the district.
In essence Collingswood gets some of the mostly likely successful students out of the Camden area via the Woodlynne "anchor kids." Students who's family seek out better education options (anchor kids, charter schools, etc) usually have a support system in place (checking homework, having breakfast, curfews, etc) which is a large factor in student performance/success.
If more resources were put towards Woodlynne's early education (particularly Pre-K, and before/after school care), and more educated Collingswood residences resolve to send their kids to the public school, than the schools performance and reputation would markedly improve. This also has an added benefit of matriculating good education toward Camden, rather than saying the only way to improve the schools is to exclude Camden. Though that approach may improve the individual schools performance (and its probably an easier political avenue), I dont think it is accord with the philosophy of a public education system.
I would just encourage the OP to consider being an agent of change for the Collingswood School system....
or to paraphrase JFK....
'Ask not what can your school can do for your children, but ask what can your children do for your school'
I can attest that the elementary schools are good to great and always have been. What's changed over the past decade though is the makeup of the other feeder towns that go to Collingswood High School
...
...
Town..............% mid-90's......% Today
Collingswood.........71%...............61%
Oaklyn.................18%...............15%
Woodlynne............11%...............24%
...
...
Do you have NJ school ranking from mid-90's vs. Today?
I would assume you are saying the school performed better in the Mid-90's when Collingswood's students made up a larger percentage of Collingswood HS.
So wouldn't your data support the reasoning that if we to swing Collingswood back towards a higher percentage, that the school would invariably improve?
Couldn't the recent influx of young educated families add to that percentage, and therefore the quality of the school? (I would just like to encourage, rather than discourage that change)
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasomm
This can, very well, still be the case in the future. I just believe the solution is better sought by encouraging the young educated families of Collingswood to consider sending their children to Collingswood HS, en mas, instead of sending them out to Private schools in the area, moving their family to a "good school" district, or solve the problem by excluding the Woodlynne corner of the district.
In essence Collingswood gets some of the mostly likely successful students out of the Camden area via the Woodlynne "anchor kids." Students who's family seek out better education options (anchor kids, charter schools, etc) usually have a support system in place (checking homework, having breakfast, curfews, etc) which is a large factor in student performance/success.
If more resources were put towards Woodlynne's early education (particularly Pre-K, and before/after school care), and more educated Collingswood residences resolve to send their kids to the public school, than the schools performance and reputation would markedly improve. This also has an added benefit of matriculating good education toward Camden, rather than saying the only way to improve the schools is to exclude Camden. Though that approach may improve the individual schools performance (and its probably an easier political avenue), I dont think it is accord with the philosophy of a public education system.
That sounds good on paper. It goes downhill in real life. Study the Pennsauken school district for the last 30 or 40 years.
I am impressed with the direction that Collingswood's schools have gone. They are heavy on technology as I've worked with Superintendent Oswald before and can say that he was an excellent VP at DHS. The kids from Woodlyne may be the 20% that have the mosy discipline issues but they know the boundries at Collingswood. Discipline issues are not front page there for a reason.
You could also move to Moorestown or Haddonfield and if your kids are prone to it, will find the spoiled rich kids who can afford expensive drugs in the mcmansions. You just pay higher taxes. Those parents get the best lawyers when the $hit hits the fan. Anyone remember the notorious Haddonfield party a few years ago when all but one family "lawyered up" to protect their kids Ivy League reps after they destroyed a house?? Look it up...it happens everywhere.
This can, very well, still be the case in the future. I just believe the solution is better sought by encouraging the young educated families of Collingswood to consider sending their children to Collingswood HS, en mas, instead of sending them out to Private schools in the area, moving their family to a "good school" district, or solve the problem by excluding the Woodlynne corner of the district.
See, I think part of the issue I have with what you are saying is the tone that Collingswood sucked 10-15 years ago until all of the urban pioneer types decided the town was hip enough to call home and brought all of their degrees and transit oriented lifestyle to town. The fact of the matter is that Collingswood socio-economically is pretty much the same town today that it was in the 1990's. There is no "sudden influx" of educated people raising the standards.
Statistics are hard to come by for that, but the DFG (District Factor Groupings) published by the NJ Department of Education rate Collingswood as part of group "DE" in 2010, the same exact place it held in 1990. The DFG scale measures poverty, median income, education level of adults, unemployment, etc. (the scale runs from A-lowest, B, CD, DE, FG, GH, I and J-highest) Basically, Collingswood is the same town it's always been. If we were to assume that all of this "new blood" had a real impact, I would have expected to see an increase in the DFG, much as what happens in other "renaissance" towns. However, that hasn't happened. I venture that kids from my generation raised in Collingswood had the same sort of educated parents who invested in their kids, the same kind of people that you think are going to cause a "turn around".
Quote:
In essence Collingswood gets some of the mostly likely successful students out of the Camden area via the Woodlynne "anchor kids." Students who's family seek out better education options (anchor kids, charter schools, etc) usually have a support system in place (checking homework, having breakfast, curfews, etc) which is a large factor in student performance/success.
It's a nice theory, but it doesn't necessarily hold true. There are no statistics that measure the performance of kids from Woodlynne vs. Collingswood vs. Oaklyn in the actual high school, they are all just lumped together. However, we can look at individual school performance up to a certain level. Using the school ranking site greatschools, whose measurements are graded 1 (low)-10 (high) with the state average set as 5 and primarily drawn from performance on testing, we can see how the districts stack up.
The high school overall earns a "4". It becomes rather painfully obvious where the weakness lies. Collingswood test scores are still around the state average, but they have been dropping for the past several years and the school has received criticism from the state for "failing to help their economically disadvantaged minority students". Students, who of course are coming from minority economically disadvantaged Woodlynne that Collingswood has no control over. They aren't going to fix in four years of high school what hasn't been taught in 9 years of PK-8 education.
Here is an article with quotes from Dr. Anderson, the curriculum director for Collingswood schools and the same guy who had the job when I went there, I actually know him somewhat personally.
“You have to be careful of these one-shot assessments,†Anderson said. “We probably have more variability than many districts because we bring in kids from all over. We have many different types of children.â€
At the state level, acting Department of Education Commissioner Christopher Cerf said the test results describe “a persistent achievement gap that leaves our economically disadvantaged, African-American and Hispanic students far behind their peers. “We must be honest with ourselves and our communities about this achievement gap, and be impatient and relentless in doing everything we can to close it once and for all,†Cerf said.
However, Anderson says any “gap†in test scores would be measured more meaningfully in terms of economics.
“We have a wide variety of incomes in this state,†Anderson said. “Children from impoverished backgrounds do worse. To couch it in racial terms is highly inflammatory.†According to Anderson, the Collingswood school district has “a great variability in achievement levels because we don’t group our students by ability.â€
Furthermore, he says, year-over-year comparisons of the test results are counterintuitive because they judge current-year students against those in prior classes instead of seeing whether the same groups of children improved over time.
Reading between the lines...our test scores suck and no they aren't getting better year-over-year and it's not fair to compare us that way because, we are doing the best we can with the kids we have, which are coming from all over with a large array of socio-economic backgrounds.
Sounds to me like the curriculum director is saying the more defensive PC version of what I'm saying.
Quote:
If more resources were put towards Woodlynne's early education (particularly Pre-K, and before/after school care), and more educated Collingswood residences resolve to send their kids to the public school, than the schools performance and reputation would markedly improve. This also has an added benefit of matriculating good education toward Camden, rather than saying the only way to improve the schools is to exclude Camden. Though that approach may improve the individual schools performance (and its probably an easier political avenue), I dont think it is accord with the philosophy of a public education system.
Google the term "Abbott District" and then come back and tell me whether or not "more resources" have an impact on school performance.
Quote:
I would just encourage the OP to consider being an agent of change for the Collingswood School system....
or to paraphrase JFK....
'Ask not what can your school can do for your children, but ask what can your children do for your school'
All noble and wonderful, but when it comes to where I'm choosing to make the largest purchase decision of my life and there's a good chance I may be "stuck" with that choice for a long time these days, I may not feel that I have the luxury to wait for other like minded people to make the same roll of the dice hoping it will get better. For my dollars, I'm taking the sure bet even if it means I don't have a trendy avenue to stroll down. Schools make or break a suburb, people aren't going to choose to move to a place with poor performing schools if they have other equally affordable choices, with better schools the next town over.
Haddon Township School Rankings
Elementary = 7
Middle School = 5
High School = 7
Look at the rankings, why would anyone choose the "hipper" town if education was their main priority?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasomm
To another point
Do you have NJ school ranking from mid-90's vs. Today?
I would assume you are saying the school performed better in the Mid-90's when Collingswood's students made up a larger percentage of Collingswood HS.
So wouldn't your data support the reasoning that if we to swing Collingswood back towards a higher percentage, that the school would invariably improve?
Couldn't the recent influx of young educated families add to that percentage, and therefore the quality of the school? (I would just like to encourage, rather than discourage that change)
The high school rankings from NJ Monthly only go back to I believe 2006, which is the latest I could find. Collingswood was 235 of 316 in 2006. 237 of 316 in 2008 and is now 267 of 322 in 2010.
You can't make any direct comparisons on standardized testing as they changed the testing from the HSPT to the HSPA in 2002 and the state DOE is explicit that the two measurements are not comparable. Additionally, it isn't so much about whether or not Collingswood got better against Collingswood as it is the overall comparison to the rest of the state. What I can say is that looking at the HSPA data from 2002 compared to now, the school is performing worse today then it was 9 years ago.
Of course, if there were more Collingswood (and Oaklyn) kids it would help swing those statistics. Collingswood schools have been relatively stable in the total number of students while Oaklyn has declined and Woodlynne has been growing. There was a big jump in Collingswoods class sizes from 1999-2001, but it has been pretty consistent since then.
Listen, I want Collingswood to succeed and do well, it is my "home town" I'm just not as high on the prospect outside of them finding a way to cut Woodlynne loose.
I am impressed with the direction that Collingswood's schools have gone. They are heavy on technology as I've worked with Superintendent Oswald before and can say that he was an excellent VP at DHS. The kids from Woodlyne may be the 20% that have the mosy discipline issues but they know the boundries at Collingswood. Discipline issues are not front page there for a reason.
You could also move to Moorestown or Haddonfield and if your kids are prone to it, will find the spoiled rich kids who can afford expensive drugs in the mcmansions. You just pay higher taxes. Those parents get the best lawyers when the $hit hits the fan. Anyone remember the notorious Haddonfield party a few years ago when all but one family "lawyered up" to protect their kids Ivy League reps after they destroyed a house?? Look it up...it happens everywhere.
Grays, your macro point is certainly true. The issue though always rolls back to Woodlynne. The schools in Woodlynne are horrible, barely a notch above Camden. When those kids (of which there are more and more of every year) get fed into Collingswood High School, Colls ends up holding the bag trying to get those kids up to speed.
Collingswood itself and even Oaklyn, I wouldn't be too concerned with. The poorer performing schools in Collingswood have been up and down for years and I think the town wants to make a concerted effort to fix it. There is a stark difference between the Tatem and Zane North neighborhoods and schools and those in other sections. However, that really isn't a major issue as Colls can control what happens there. They can allocate the resources and effort to make an impact.
What they can't control is Woodlynne and what they do. Ultimately the now near 25% of the high school kids that are from Woodlynne are pulling down the averages and sucking up the resources. It makes it really hard to want to send your kid to Collingswood High when the reputation is in continual decline. We've talked this over before, being "hip and trendy" doesn't matter when you're a suburb. When you're a suburb it's all about education and right now Collingswood doesn't deliver that as well as other towns in the area do. Towns with similar housing costs and taxes.
IMO, that is the "missing" component to Collingswood, not gastro pubs and wine bars, they need to fix the education or people are just going to continue picking the other local options and driving to Collingswood to be hip on the weekends. The vast majority of people I went to school with still live in the immediate area. Very few of them live in Collingswood. That tells me something.
Anyone remember the notorious Haddonfield party a few years ago when all but one family "lawyered up" to protect their kids Ivy League reps after they destroyed a house?? Look it up...it happens everywhere.
Which one haha? It's happened more than once. Are you referring to the infamous piano incident?
Here is the data from census 2000 in the way they present it:
Category..............Collingswood........NJ
HS Grad...............27.5%...............29.4%
Some College........21.0%...............17.7%
Associates............8.7%.................5.3%
Bachelors.............20.1%...............18.8%
Grad/Prof.............10.2%...............11.0%
% HS or Higher......87.5%...............82.1%
% BA or Higher......30.3%...............29.8%
I wasn't able to find the exact same tables for 2010, but this is what is quoted on CLRsearch as being from the 2010 census:
Category..............Collingswood........NJ
HS Grad...............27.7%...............30.0%
Some College........19.9%...............17.0%
Associates............10.2%...............6.2%
Bachelors.............21.4%...............20.7%
Grad/Prof.............11.1%...............12.0%
% HS or Higher......90.3%...............85.9%
% BA or Higher......32.5%...............32.7%
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Overall, I don't see an appreciable difference in educational attainment between 2000 and 2010. Especially if we take into account changes in NJ on the whole.
Last edited by Yac; 09-10-2018 at 05:39 AM..
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