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Old 12-22-2013, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Voorhees, NJ
26 posts, read 65,748 times
Reputation: 16

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I'm wondering what everyone's take on the mass transit system, or lack there of, in South Jersey. What are your ideas of future projects that can be done?

I would like to see a HUGE improvement over the next 25 to 50 years, targeting the lower and middle class towns that may struggle to afford their own means of transportation as fossil fuels begin to diminish.

Here are my proposals:

-A "grand central station" of sorts, headquartered in Camden that would be the epicenter of all the lines in South Jersey area (including Riverline and Patco)

-Improvements on the proposed Gloucester County Line, including stops in Lanning/Bergen Square in Camden and an extension from Glassboro to Millville.
---Stops include: Midtown Camden, Franklin, Clayton, Vineland

-Black Horse Pike line running from Camden to Turnersville (where the Pike ends on 168)
---Stops include: Fairview, Mt. Ephraim, Runnemede, Blackwood

-Federal St. line (Camden County route 537) running from Camden to the Kings Hwy split in Maple Shade. Eventually, I'd like to see this extended to Mt. Holly, but I don't see Moorestown budging with the rail plans for a while.
---Stops include: Merchantville, Cherry Hill (Cherry Hill Mall?), Maple Shade

-River Line South: From Camden to Millville
---Stops include: National Park, West Deptford, Paulsboro, Pennsville, Salem, Bridgeton


Of course, in my dream world, I'd like there to be a transit station at the most 3 miles from any area with a population density of greater than 4000 per square mile. But I think we're very, very far off from that.

I just don't want towns to be stranded. I want people to help out there state by not only commuting on the train, but visiting different towns and sights, bringing the economy up in towns, especially in Cumberland and Salem counties.

Last edited by DS Nightly; 12-22-2013 at 02:34 AM..
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:50 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
8,572 posts, read 12,099,155 times
Reputation: 5633
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Nightly View Post
I'm wondering what everyone's take on the mass transit system, or lack there of, in South Jersey. What are your ideas of future projects that can be done?

I would like to see a HUGE improvement over the next 25 to 50 years, targeting the lower and middle class towns that may struggle to afford their own means of transportation as fossil fuels begin to diminish.

Here are my proposals:

-A "grand central station" of sorts, headquartered in Camden that would be the epicenter of all the lines in South Jersey area (including Riverline and Patco)

-Improvements on the proposed Gloucester County Line, including stops in Lanning/Bergen Square in Camden and an extension from Glassboro to Millville.
---Stops include: Midtown Camden, Franklin, Clayton, Vineland

-Black Horse Pike line running from Camden to Turnersville (where the Pike ends on 168)
---Stops include: Fairview, Mt. Ephraim, Runnemede, Blackwood

-Federal St. line (Camden County route 537) running from Camden to the Kings Hwy split in Maple Shade. Eventually, I'd like to see this extended to Mt. Holly, but I don't see Moorestown budging with the rail plans for a while.
---Stops include: Merchantville, Cherry Hill (Cherry Hill Mall?), Maple Shade

-River Line South: From Camden to Millville
---Stops include: National Park, West Deptford, Paulsboro, Pennsville, Salem, Bridgeton


Of course, in my dream world, I'd like there to be a transit station at the most 3 miles from any area with a population density of greater than 4000 per square mile. But I think we're very, very far off from that.

I just don't want towns to be stranded. I want people to help out there state by not only commuting on the train, but visiting different towns and sights, bringing the economy up in towns, especially in Cumberland and Salem counties.
Ask Gov. Chris Christie. Oh yeah I forgot, he doesn't care about improving mass transit in South Jersey. He would rather keep our part of the state in the Stone Age. We will be lucky to get the proposed Glassboro-Camden light rail line by 2020. Maybe in 2080 they will start the environmental phrase of the Cape May Line. I wish the PATCO was extended Gluocester and Cumberland County. Make it a one-seat ride from Philly to Millville. The ridership potential would be enormous if that happened.

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 12-23-2013 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 12-24-2013, 05:57 PM
 
2,046 posts, read 4,732,698 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Nightly View Post
I'm wondering what everyone's take on the mass transit system, or lack there of, in South Jersey. What are your ideas of future projects that can be done?

I would like to see a HUGE improvement over the next 25 to 50 years, targeting the lower and middle class towns that may struggle to afford their own means of transportation as fossil fuels begin to diminish.

Here are my proposals:

-A "grand central station" of sorts, headquartered in Camden that would be the epicenter of all the lines in South Jersey area (including Riverline and Patco)

-Improvements on the proposed Gloucester County Line, including stops in Lanning/Bergen Square in Camden and an extension from Glassboro to Millville.
---Stops include: Midtown Camden, Franklin, Clayton, Vineland

-Black Horse Pike line running from Camden to Turnersville (where the Pike ends on 168)
---Stops include: Fairview, Mt. Ephraim, Runnemede, Blackwood

-Federal St. line (Camden County route 537) running from Camden to the Kings Hwy split in Maple Shade. Eventually, I'd like to see this extended to Mt. Holly, but I don't see Moorestown budging with the rail plans for a while.
---Stops include: Merchantville, Cherry Hill (Cherry Hill Mall?), Maple Shade

-River Line South: From Camden to Millville
---Stops include: National Park, West Deptford, Paulsboro, Pennsville, Salem, Bridgeton


Of course, in my dream world, I'd like there to be a transit station at the most 3 miles from any area with a population density of greater than 4000 per square mile. But I think we're very, very far off from that.

I just don't want towns to be stranded. I want people to help out there state by not only commuting on the train, but visiting different towns and sights, bringing the economy up in towns, especially in Cumberland and Salem counties.
You do realize NJT's buses aren't that slow right. On black horse pike the 400 runs like a city bus in terms of frequency. I do agree with the need for riverline south however. Ohh and do you know why the riverline takes it's current form? It's cause there were plans to have a federal street line which were cancelled as a result they instead opted for the current routing that the riverline takes today. Plus the 407 runs there too. The 400& 407 are both frequent plus the 405 reinforces the 407. Try using the buses to the fullest before saying slap a rail line there. FYI the Atlantic city line sucks.
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Old 12-24-2013, 06:01 PM
 
2,046 posts, read 4,732,698 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Ask Gov. Chris Christie. Oh yeah I forgot, he doesn't care about improving mass transit in South Jersey. He would rather keep our part of the state in the Stone Age. We will be lucky to get the proposed Glassboro-Camden light rail line by 2020. Maybe in 2080 they will start the environmental phrase of the Cape May Line. I wish the PATCO was extended Gluocester and Cumberland County. Make it a one-seat ride from Philly to Millville. The ridership potential would be enormous if that happened.
They could simply upgrade service on the 313!!!! Done for short term. 4 trips doesn't cut it and 408 is slow. FYI 408 goes directly to Philly from Melville it's just slow sort of.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:24 AM
 
592 posts, read 1,365,131 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Nightly View Post
I'm wondering what everyone's take on the mass transit system, or lack there of, in South Jersey. What are your ideas of future projects that can be done?


-Black Horse Pike line running from Camden to Turnersville (where the Pike ends on 168)
---Stops include: Fairview, Mt. Ephraim, Runnemede, Blackwood
BHP line... meaning a train line?
There's barely enough room for cars on the BHP... where do you put a train line?
There was a mostly parallel set of tracks running along BHP, but other than Bellmawr I believe they've all been removed and in some areas converted to trails or taken over (like the Runnemede Toyota lot)

I think the big problem with any mass transit solution in 2014.. is that for most things its just too damn late. When 295, 42 and the Turnpike were going in 60 yrs ago most of the land was farms. Thank God the gov leaders had enough foresight to get these projects built... (same for rt 55 in the 80s).
Now that all those farm properties have been converted to homes and businesses, the cost of putting down new train lines and highways is just ridiculously costly. Unfortunately its not Sim City where you can simply bulldoze a 10mile swath of land for a new highway. :-)

So back to the BHP... the better alternative, which was already discussed along with the GC line... is to run a train line down the center (or side) of Rt 42... The land is mostly clear, its definitely a congested area that would benefit from mass transit. Although once it gets to Bellmawr to make it the rest of the way to Camden (and then Philly) the line would have to divert off of 676 and onto some other existing train track... probably the same train track that was chosen for the Gloucester cty line. (which is probably why the Gloucester County line beat out the 42 line).

But in the end... even with a somewhat clear path between two destinations... construction projects like this in 2014+ are measured in billions, not millions, and its going to be very, very tough to justify.

The proposed Gloucester County line... on land that is already basically clear (minimal personal property purchases), has an estimated cost of 1.6 billion!! For how many riders? Are there really enough people in Glassboro (or heading to rowan) to justify that cost? And when they really get to building it in 10 yrs that 1.6 billion will probably be 4 billion. (my guess/opinion)
http://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/...uter_rail.html

Even Patco... which has the benefit of being built decades ago, and in some cases on very old tracks (which can be a detriment actually).

Like its train cars, PATCO needs a face-lift - Philly.com

  • $100 million just to replace the tracks on BF bridge (granted, a tougher project over a large bridge).
  • Escalators not working in many (most?) stations.
  • $200 million to refurbish the 50+ yr old cars. Not new cars... just to refurbish them! imagine what all new cars would cost


Anyway... its tough to justify the costs with the riderships.


Remote working, and buses... may be our future

Last edited by bellmark; 12-27-2013 at 06:45 AM.. Reason: various edits
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:24 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
8,572 posts, read 12,099,155 times
Reputation: 5633
Quote:
Originally Posted by qjbusmaster View Post
They could simply upgrade service on the 313!!!! Done for short term.
You must be joking with that comment.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:33 AM
 
14,781 posts, read 41,227,922 times
Reputation: 14586
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellmark View Post
Now that all those farm properties have been converted to homes and businesses, the cost of putting down new train lines and highways is just ridiculously costly. Unfortunately its not Sim City where you can simply bulldoze a 10mile swath of land
To the bold...THANK YOU for saying that. I read these pie-in-the-sky transit posts and I find myself asking, where reality is. I'm not anti-transit, I'm just pro-reality...
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Voorhees, NJ
26 posts, read 65,748 times
Reputation: 16
^^Thank you all for your responses. I understand my first post was a but far fetched. I'm new to but very interested in understanding infrastructure and how it can benefit the most people.

Here's an interesting article I found. I'm surprised how much it mirrors my proposition, haha. But the author has knowledge of the existing tracks that can be used.

Crossing the Lines: South Jersey Regional Rail

I'm especially concerned with the area between the Black Horse and White Horse Pike's, north of Blackwood Clementon Rd. It's such a densely-populated area that has so much potential. I wouldn't be against buses, either.

I may be getting on my soap box, but I'm someone who eventually doesn't want to own a car - to be anchored with car-payments, to know that in 50 years I may be without one, anyway! I think NJ, the "move through" capital of the US, needs to get in the 21st century. That's just one reason, but there are other benefits (including economic) that can help the state and it's people in the long haul.
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:00 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
8,572 posts, read 12,099,155 times
Reputation: 5633
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Nightly View Post
Here's an interesting article I found. I'm surprised how much it mirrors my proposition, haha. But the author has knowledge of the existing tracks that can be used.

Crossing the Lines: South Jersey Regional Rail
What's even worst is that New Jersey Transit owns a lot of those tracks and yet they don't even do anything with them in regards to restoring passenger rail service. It really shows how much they care about transportation in South Jersey. smh.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:41 AM
 
884 posts, read 1,548,535 times
Reputation: 681
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Nightly View Post
^^Thank you all for your responses. I understand my first post was a but far fetched. I'm new to but very interested in understanding infrastructure and how it can benefit the most people.

Here's an interesting article I found. I'm surprised how much it mirrors my proposition, haha. But the author has knowledge of the existing tracks that can be used.

Crossing the Lines: South Jersey Regional Rail

I'm especially concerned with the area between the Black Horse and White Horse Pike's, north of Blackwood Clementon Rd. It's such a densely-populated area that has so much potential. I wouldn't be against buses, either.

I may be getting on my soap box, but I'm someone who eventually doesn't want to own a car - to be anchored with car-payments, to know that in 50 years I may be without one, anyway! I think NJ, the "move through" capital of the US, needs to get in the 21st century. That's just one reason, but there are other benefits (including economic) that can help the state and it's people in the long haul.
Well, on the bright side, I believe Men's Health Magazine rated Collingswood one of the best towns in which to go car-free. Nearby Philadelphia just about forces you to do so in Center City unless you can afford and extra $150 monthly for garage parking.

For me, as someone who enjoys the flexibility afforded by car ownership, one of South Jersey's big attractions is the ample parking and low congestions (compared to North Jersey, at least), so I don't see as big a need for public transit right now. Personally, I think a light rail connecting some of the more populous suburbs in Morris and Essex counties would have had more affect on reducing congestion than the Riverline through a string of moderately populated old river towns. However, the southern PATCO is a great idea and one that I think would really make Glassboro a booming town. It's also off that a lot of places that feel like "train towns" such as Mount Holly and Haddon Heights don't have any train access.
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