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Old 05-07-2012, 04:59 PM
 
76 posts, read 174,318 times
Reputation: 24

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deere110 View Post
What's interesting about this thread is that both the pro-hunting posters and the anti-hunting posters aren't making much sense. FYI-bears don't kill deer-they might feast upon a dead one if they came upon it (bears are omnivorous but are also opportunists), but a black bear would be hard pressed to catch a deer much less "eat" it. Furthermore, bear hunting and bear seasons have nothing to do with keeping bears out of the suburbs. The NJ bear hunting zones are in Sussex, Warren, and Northwestern Passaic Counties. There is a bear season because there's a need to manage the population-a well managed bear hunt is a far cry from the fiascos you see when a bear wanders into the average NJ suburb.

As for the person from British Columbia, I've yet to see a reason why there shouldn't be a bear season just like there is a deer season, small game season, etc...are you against all hunting? If so, that's just silly. If you're only against bear hunting, that's even sillier. Finally, you mention that where you come from people like to see bears while they are hiking and hear coyotes howl, etc... So do I and so do most of the hunters I know-what does that have to do with hunting or not hunting? No one has advocated wiping either species off of the face of the earth, just managing them responsibly.

One of the reasons I don't post on this forum much is because of the lack of rural folks from NJ. Topics like this are a glaring example. On one hand you have frightened suburbanites who think that bears kill deer, and on the other hand you have animal rights folks who oppose all hunting for reasons they can't even explain to themselves. Then you have people like myself who can only read these threads and
Deere10,

Black bears do kill young ungulates. At bottom of this message are a few studies showing bears taking a pretty significant portion of whitetail deer fawns. The issue is whether black bear predation is additive (i.e. in addition to other causes - reducing fawn recruitment and therefore deer populations) or compensatory (black bears are just killing fawns which would die from some other cause). As far as I know, the jury is still out. My suspicion is that it would be somewhat additive.

There are studies showing black bear predation on adult ungulates on rare occasions (usually winter-weakend or injured animals). If you are interested, I can PM them to you.

The opposition to bear hunting (and predators in general) is that it is not natural. Deer and other game species evolved to incur significant levels of predation. Most mammalian carnivores, particularly large ones, never evolved
to incur the levels of predation hunting typically takes.

This has practical implications in terms of population age structure and numbers. In exploited populations, carnivore age structures become younger and mature experienced animals decrease. Removing well-behaved (i.e. stay out of residential areas, flee from people, etc.) individuals in exchange for wider roaming and often less well-behaved adolescents is not a good thing IMHO. Also, from a wildlife observer's point of view this makes the bears we do see less interesting (i.e. I like to see large mature males who are knowledgable about finding natural food sources). Carnivores do have more complex life histories and experience matters in terms of the quality of the given number of individuals that exist.

In the end, there is a bit of a philosophical question? Do we just have wildlife to hunt or does it serve other purposes? IMHO, I see the goal of hunting to help maintain a balanced ecosystem. Humans have long hunted game species and should continue to do so. However, IMHO the hunting of carnivores is recreation for a very small part of the population and has some serious drawbacks.

Bear - Deer Fawn Predation Studies

Study 1 :

Is the black bear (Ursus americanus) an important predator of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) fawns? Do fawns contribute significantly to black bear diets? We attempted to answer these and other questions by closely observing 5 wild, researcher-habituated black bears in northeastern Minnesota for 1 or more years during 1986-1991. The bears were observed to kill or scavenge 21 fawns, all between 23 May and 28 June of those years. In 1990, observations were concentrated on a territorial mother and her independent yearling from 23 May to 27 June. The 2 bears used an area of 19.7 square kilometers which contained an estimated 69 fawns (3.5 fawns/km<2>) (Mark Lenarz, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, personal communication, 1990). The mother killed 2 fawns, found 2 that had been killed by other bears, scavenged a nonpredated carcass, and killed or scavenged 1 other. The yearling killed and ate 1 fawn. These 7 fawns, comprised 10 percent of the estimated 69 fawns available and comprised 2-5 percent of the 2 bears" diets. The bears detected bedded fawns up to 186 m away. Eight (38%) of the 21 fawns eaten during this study were eaten between June 10 and 15 when fawns are approximately 10-15 days old, assuming birth dates around June 1. This age of highest vulnerability coincides with the age when fawns begin to move more frequently and create scent by urinating on their back legs. Bears found fawns incidentally in the course of feeding upon insects and vegetation. At observed fawn densities, the bears did not appear to hunt fawns until they smelled them. [/SIZE]
http://www.bearstudy.org/website/ima..._Minnesota.pdf[/SIZE]

Study 2: Wisconsin Suggests Some Impact of Bear Predation Deer Population Growth

[LEFT]Not surprisingly, the truth in any given predator-prey system often lies somewhere
between with some predation being compensatory and some being additive. The trick is
to determine degree. If predation has an “additive,” or negative, effect on prey population
growth, is the effect small or large?

Jacques and Van Deelen applied statistical analysis to ten years of field and registration
data (1998-2008) supplied by hunters from 57 deer management units, or DMUs, in the
northern and central forests.

This 10 year period coincides with a steady increase in wolf populations and a probable
increase in bear populations in the northern and central forests.

The Wisconsin researchers were looking for relationships, or correlations, within this
large mass of data. For instance, do the data show a relationship between increasing wolf
numbers in a given area and the growth rate of the deer herd? If such a relationship is
revealed, researchers call this a “signal.” The signal can be positive or negative, weak or
strong.

This statistical analysis does not show cause and effect, Van Deelen cautions.
Nevertheless, the numerical “signals” it produces are valuable markers, pointing to areas
where further research is needed to explain the numbers.

The statistical model created by Jacques and Van Deelen suggests black bear presence is
associated with a reduced population growth rate for deer of less than one percent. Under
this model deer herds would still grow in the presence of a large bear population, just at a
slightly reduced rate. The model also suggests that the presence of wolves is related to a[/LEFT]
slightly increased rate of doe mortality.

Study 3: Black Bears Predation Accounted for About One Half of Whitetail Deer Fawn Mortality in Minnesota

"Predation accounted for all deaths." Overall, wolves caused 51% of fawn mortalities and black bears 49%."
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/bas...rpredation.pdf

Last edited by chennai01; 05-07-2012 at 05:09 PM..
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:47 PM
 
2,535 posts, read 6,669,270 times
Reputation: 1603
Maybe if we keep hunting them they will develop more evolved defenses, like laser beams. Have you seen planet of the apes...like that except bears!!! Maybe they could cast Ryan Reynolds as the Mark Wahlberg character in that movie...he's canadian too you know.
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:49 PM
 
11,337 posts, read 11,047,471 times
Reputation: 14993
Quote:
Originally Posted by deere110 View Post
What's interesting about this thread is that both the pro-hunting posters and the anti-hunting posters aren't making much sense. FYI-bears don't kill deer-they might feast upon a dead one if they came upon it (bears are omnivorous but are also opportunists), but a black bear would be hard pressed to catch a deer much less "eat" it. Furthermore, bear hunting and bear seasons have nothing to do with keeping bears out of the suburbs. The NJ bear hunting zones are in Sussex, Warren, and Northwestern Passaic Counties. There is a bear season because there's a need to manage the population-a well managed bear hunt is a far cry from the fiascos you see when a bear wanders into the average NJ suburb.

As for the person from British Columbia, I've yet to see a reason why there shouldn't be a bear season just like there is a deer season, small game season, etc...are you against all hunting? If so, that's just silly. If you're only against bear hunting, that's even sillier. Finally, you mention that where you come from people like to see bears while they are hiking and hear coyotes howl, etc... So do I and so do most of the hunters I know-what does that have to do with hunting or not hunting? No one has advocated wiping either species off of the face of the earth, just managing them responsibly.

One of the reasons I don't post on this forum much is because of the lack of rural folks from NJ. Topics like this are a glaring example. On one hand you have frightened suburbanites who think that bears kill deer, and on the other hand you have animal rights folks who oppose all hunting for reasons they can't even explain to themselves. Then you have people like myself who can only read these threads and
Bears do eat deer. It is not their staple but if they can pull it off situationally they will go for it. Same with other animals they can catch, including humans. Or pets like dogs or cats or rabbits or anything else that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Omnivores eat meat as well as veggies. Aside from that, bears can be aggressive for other reasons, including protecting their young, if they are unusually hungry, if they are surprised by sudden contact, or if they have rabies. As such, they cannot live in the suburbs and should be eradicated. All animals that become pests and or dangers should be eradicated, especially in the suburbs.

If you live in Wantage or Montague or Yellowknife, you accept co-existence with the resident beasts. I do not accept that in Morris County and points East. In these areas, bears, deer, geese, or other animals that become pests and dangers need to be eliminated.

And I am not going to change my garbage habits to accomodate bears. I simply do not accept the premise that I must share my suburban environment with deadly big game of any type.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Cumberland County, NJ
8,632 posts, read 13,005,246 times
Reputation: 5766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Bears do eat deer. It is not their staple but if they can pull it off situationally they will go for it. Same with other animals they can catch, including humans. Or pets like dogs or cats or rabbits or anything else that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Omnivores eat meat as well as veggies. Aside from that, bears can be aggressive for other reasons, including protecting their young, if they are unusually hungry, if they are surprised by sudden contact, or if they have rabies. As such, they cannot live in the suburbs and should be eradicated. All animals that become pests and or dangers should be eradicated, especially in the suburbs.

If you live in Wantage or Montague or Yellowknife, you accept co-existence with the resident beasts. I do not accept that in Morris County and points East. In these areas, bears, deer, geese, or other animals that become pests and dangers need to be eliminated.

And I am not going to change my garbage habits to accomodate bears. I simply do not accept the premise that I must share my suburban environment with deadly big game of any type.
I hope you guys get that Bear population under control up there in Northern New Jersey because I don't won't to see a substantial increase in articles like this one down in South Jersey. Its a little to close to home for me.

Bear sighting in Millville another sign of animals' move south - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Cumberland County News
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:33 PM
 
11,337 posts, read 11,047,471 times
Reputation: 14993
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
I hope that you guys get the Bear population under control up there in Northern New Jersey because I don't won't to see a substantial increase in articles like this one down in South Jersey. Its a little to close to home for me.

Bear sighting in Millville another sign of animals' move south - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Cumberland County News
Exactly. Totally unacceptable. A different bear would have torn the two dogs apart and had the dog food for desert. This can be stopped with monthly hunts. There is no rational reason not to allow the hunters to have their fun and solve this problem in the process. Same with the excessive deer explosion. The damned things are everywhere creating chaos on the roads and leaving dangerous droppings everywhere they roam. Enough already.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...door_into.html

If this happens at a different time, we might have a couple of dead kidlets.

Last edited by Marc Paolella; 05-07-2012 at 10:43 PM..
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:18 AM
 
332 posts, read 991,177 times
Reputation: 241
Suburbanites are endlessly entertaining-this thread has gotten downright silly How about you leave the hunting to us and go back to hiding from chipmunks in your McMansions?
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Sunshine N'Blue Skies
13,321 posts, read 22,671,723 times
Reputation: 11696
A most beautiful black bear crossed in front of our car up on Waterloo Road before Continental road.( spring of 2011) My first NJ bear even though I lived in NJ most of my life.
I was just a bit afraid for the people in that closeby hiking area. He was heading in that direction although would have been to the left side of the area. Gorgeous guy......
I've seen quite a few black bears in PA. One was in my back yard and sitting and standing ( on the tree side) he was huge. One other very large bear roaming and a few smaller size bears.
Just beautiful creatures and I hate to hear when its Bear Shooting Day....
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:53 AM
 
2,535 posts, read 6,669,270 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by deere110 View Post
Suburbanites are endlessly entertaining-this thread has gotten downright silly How about you leave the hunting to us and go back to hiding from chipmunks in your McMansions?
That's the whole point. We want you to keep hunting!!! If I want to see a beautiful majestic Black Bear I'll go to a Zoo. I have no interest having them within striking distance of my kids.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:15 AM
 
Location: NJ
23,564 posts, read 17,237,701 times
Reputation: 17609
Gosh, the green acres program has provided 500k of taxpayer money to create a black bear exhibit at turtleback zoo. the bears even have names.

A kid had been killed in Nj in Sussex around the turn of the 19th/20th century. He went to pick some corn and got woofed.

People have been injured, the boy scouts, livestock killed in NJ. Just wait for the first fatality and the tune will change. Surely some slick lawyers will see to that. Recent incident where a fed agency went nuts and prosecuted a boat captain who 'whistled at a pod of whales' in hope to keep them in the area for a tour boat. With Cass Sunstein head of reg affairs advocating legal representation for animals don't be surprised if your dog sues you. BBs aren't far behind.

Reducing the bear population does several things as well as reducing the statistical chance of a human fatality/ contact. it doesn't eliminate it. Wearing a seat belt increases your statistical chance of survival in an accident but also guarantees someone will die if wearing a seat belt.

Stories of NJ turkey hunters calling in a turkey and were surprised to a black bear coming in to the call instead.

Tony the tiger, pooh bear, teddy, smokey, yogi and boo-boo have convinced a generation of the innocence of a a several hundred pound animal with claws and jaws. God forbid a dog should run loose in the neighborhood.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:29 AM
 
76 posts, read 174,318 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Bears do eat deer. It is not their staple but if they can pull it off situationally they will go for it. Same with other animals they can catch, including humans. Or pets like dogs or cats or rabbits or anything else that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Omnivores eat meat as well as veggies. Aside from that, bears can be aggressive for other reasons, including protecting their young, if they are unusually hungry, if they are surprised by sudden contact, or if they have rabies. As such, they cannot live in the suburbs and should be eradicated. All animals that become pests and or dangers should be eradicated, especially in the suburbs.

If you live in Wantage or Montague or Yellowknife, you accept co-existence with the resident beasts. I do not accept that in Morris County and points East. In these areas, bears, deer, geese, or other animals that become pests and dangers need to be eliminated.

And I am not going to change my garbage habits to accomodate bears. I simply do not accept the premise that I must share my suburban environment with deadly big game of any type.
You are dead wrong. Large parts of Morris County are deemed prime black bear habitat the New Jersey Department of Fish and Game. The plan's goal is to prevent bears from permanently residing in areas east of I-287 and south of I-78.

Morris County has large tracts of protected parks and other protected areas that serve as prime bear habitat. This was one of the main reasons why I moved to the part of Morris County I live.

As for not changing your garbage habits, realize you are violating New Jersey law if bears are known to frequent your area and you should be prosecuted to the fullest extent under the law:

23:2A-14. Intentional feeding of black bears prohibited; violations, penalties

1. a. No person shall:

(1) feed, give, place, expose, deposit, distribute or scatter any edible material or attractant with the intention of feeding, attracting or enticing a black bear; or

(2) store pet food, garbage or other bear attractants in a manner that will result in bear feedings when black bear are known to frequent the area.

c. (1) If any person violates subsection a. of this section, the department may institute a civil action in a court of competent jurisdiction for injunctive relief to prohibit and prevent such violation or violations and the court may proceed in the action in a summary manner.

(2) Any person who violates the provisions of subsection a. of this section shall be liable to a civil penalty of up to $1,000 for each offense, to be collected in a civil action by a summary proceeding under the "Penalty Enforcement Law of 1999," P.L.1999, c.274 (C.2A:58-10 et seq.) or in any case before a court of competent jurisdiction wherein injunctive relief has been requested. Civil penalties recovered for violations hereof shall be remitted as provided in R.S.23:10-19. The Superior Court and municipal court shall have jurisdiction to enforce the "Penalty Enforcement Law of 1999."

New Jersey Statutes - Title 23 Fish and Game, Wild Birds and Animals - 23:2A-14 Intentional feeding of black bears prohibited; violations, penalties - New Jersey Attorney Resources - New Jersey Laws

If the violation is of a continuing nature, each day during which it continues shall constitute an additional, separate and distinct offense.

No person shall be assessed a civil penalty pursuant to this paragraph unless the person has first been issued a prior written warning for a violation of subsection a. of this section.

This statute is not enforced and is major reason why bears are leaving forests into nearby residential neighborhoods causing problems.

Last edited by chennai01; 05-08-2012 at 09:51 AM..
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