Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-08-2012, 09:44 AM
 
76 posts, read 174,271 times
Reputation: 24

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Exactly. Totally unacceptable. A different bear would have torn the two dogs apart and had the dog food for desert. This can be stopped with monthly hunts. There is no rational reason not to allow the hunters to have their fun and solve this problem in the process. Same with the excessive deer explosion. The damned things are everywhere creating chaos on the roads and leaving dangerous droppings everywhere they roam. Enough already.

VIDEO: Bear smashes through glass door into N.J. elementary school | NJ.com

If this happens at a different time, we might have a couple of dead kidlets.
First, this is in Ogdensburg in Sussex County, a place where you stated bears should reside. The animal was a cub, which probably recently disperesed from its mother. Young bears roam widely in spring and tend to get in more trouble than adults just like human teenagers. Hunting will skew the population towards more young animals and lead to more problems.

Let's review the key phrase in the article:

"This is a pretty regular occurrence for the kids and their families. Bears regularly get into people’s garbage and are seen running through backyards," said Nicinski

As I've said, improper security of garbage is the major cause of the problem. The other article cited the bear going into the people's yard due to dog food being present. Note how the bear never attacked the dogs and left the area.

If bears are known to frequent these areas, then both cases would have people violating New Jersey law. The lack of enforcment allowed bears to be attracted into these areas and caused the problems.

As far as your irrational fear of bears, I will simply quote Lynn Rogers, PhD, who has studied black bears up close and personal for over 40 years. You are 56 more times likely to be killed by having your neighbor add an additional person living in their house than to a black bear.

In the years Rogers has tramped through the Northwoods he has abandoned just about everything he knew, or thought he knew, about bears. They do not like honey. They are not even that crazy about berries or nuts – provided, of course, there is a nice rich stash of ant larvae in the vicinity.
And they are not ferocious. Rogers is adamant about that. He said he has never heard a bear roar or even growl, and that in all of his years of close proximity to the animals he has never been seriously hurt even though in his early years he displayed what he calls "bad bear manners".
The bears he knows are timid creatures. Defensive postures, such as swatting their large paws on the ground, are mistaken for aggression by many people.

"In my 42 years of working closely with bears and testing every no-no, I have not found a way of getting a bear to attack. The more I push them the more they try to get away. They might want to nip and slap, but it is not an attack, it is just a way of fending me off so they can find a way to escape."
It's humans who are the more dangerous animal, he said. "If you look at the statistics, one black bear out of a million kills somebody. With grizzly bears it's one in 50,000. Among humans it's one person out of 18,000 kills somebody. So you could see why I would feel a lot less comfortable in the city than in the woods next to a bear."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-08-2012, 09:51 AM
 
58 posts, read 153,541 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Bears do eat deer. It is not their staple but if they can pull it off situationally they will go for it. Same with other animals they can catch, including humans. Or pets like dogs or cats or rabbits or anything else that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Omnivores eat meat as well as veggies. Aside from that, bears can be aggressive for other reasons, including protecting their young, if they are unusually hungry, if they are surprised by sudden contact, or if they have rabies. As such, they cannot live in the suburbs and should be eradicated. All animals that become pests and or dangers should be eradicated, especially in the suburbs.

If you live in Wantage or Montague or Yellowknife, you accept co-existence with the resident beasts. I do not accept that in Morris County and points East. In these areas, bears, deer, geese, or other animals that become pests and dangers need to be eliminated.

And I am not going to change my garbage habits to accomodate bears. I simply do not accept the premise that I must share my suburban environment with deadly big game of any type.
You are entirely wrong. Western Morris County has plenty of bears, and they should stay, for you to say they should be all killed shows how little you know about those areas. There are plenty of woods in some towns with plenty of room for bears.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 10:12 AM
 
332 posts, read 990,726 times
Reputation: 241
This thread is a perfect example of why something so simple (having a normal season for black bear hunting) has become so controversial and convoluted in the state of NJ. There are folks on both sides of the argument (animal rights activists and scared suburbanites) who know very little about what they're arguing, or trying to argue. New Jersey Fish and Wildlife has its own biologists and wildlife experts who are perfectly capable of determining what is an acceptable number of bears, how long the season should be, and what a good harvest number should be. After all, NJF&W determines this for every other game animal in the state without much fanfare. When it comes to bears however, NJF&W becomes subject to the whims of animal rights activists who oppose bear hunting for nonsensical reasons and frightened McMansion dwellers who seem to be afraid of their own shadows. Again, the rural dwellers of NJ can get along just fine without the meddling of folks on either side because both of their arguments are equally ridiculous.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 10:35 AM
 
11,337 posts, read 11,039,869 times
Reputation: 14993
Quote:
Originally Posted by chennai01 View Post
First, this is in Ogdensburg in Sussex County, a place where you stated bears should reside. The animal was a cub, which probably recently disperesed from its mother. Young bears roam widely in spring and tend to get in more trouble than adults just like human teenagers. Hunting will skew the population towards more young animals and lead to more problems.

Let's review the key phrase in the article:

"This is a pretty regular occurrence for the kids and their families. Bears regularly get into people’s garbage and are seen running through backyards," said Nicinski

As I've said, improper security of garbage is the major cause of the problem. The other article cited the bear going into the people's yard due to dog food being present. Note how the bear never attacked the dogs and left the area.

If bears are known to frequent these areas, then both cases would have people violating New Jersey law. The lack of enforcment allowed bears to be attracted into these areas and caused the problems.

As far as your irrational fear of bears, I will simply quote Lynn Rogers, PhD, who has studied black bears up close and personal for over 40 years. You are 56 more times likely to be killed by having your neighbor add an additional person living in their house than to a black bear.

In the years Rogers has tramped through the Northwoods he has abandoned just about everything he knew, or thought he knew, about bears. They do not like honey. They are not even that crazy about berries or nuts – provided, of course, there is a nice rich stash of ant larvae in the vicinity.
And they are not ferocious. Rogers is adamant about that. He said he has never heard a bear roar or even growl, and that in all of his years of close proximity to the animals he has never been seriously hurt even though in his early years he displayed what he calls "bad bear manners".
The bears he knows are timid creatures. Defensive postures, such as swatting their large paws on the ground, are mistaken for aggression by many people.

"In my 42 years of working closely with bears and testing every no-no, I have not found a way of getting a bear to attack. The more I push them the more they try to get away. They might want to nip and slap, but it is not an attack, it is just a way of fending me off so they can find a way to escape."
It's humans who are the more dangerous animal, he said. "If you look at the statistics, one black bear out of a million kills somebody. With grizzly bears it's one in 50,000. Among humans it's one person out of 18,000 kills somebody. So you could see why I would feel a lot less comfortable in the city than in the woods next to a bear."
Your whole argument is wrong and agenda-filled. Mine is simple: NO BLACK BEARS, OR OTHER DEADLY BIG GAME, OR OTHER NUISANCE ANIMALS IN MY ENVIRONMENT.

The birds and the bees can stay, so can the squirrels and the chipmunks. Once animals start causing human deaths by proliferating to the point where they are colliding with vehicles on a regular basis, they have to be hunted and harvested. Let the hunters have at it until the problem is resolved. Bear hunting and deer hunting should be allowed ALL THE TIME until the populations are reduced to a manageable level. Manageable means I DON'T SEE THEM OFTEN, and THEY DON'T OFTEN CRASH INTO HUMAN TRAVEL MACHINES.

In less populated areas like the Poconos and the Catskills and far far away from urbia and suburbia, the bears and deer may roam as they see fit. BUT NOT HERE!

Having said that, even in rural areas, landowners should be free to shoot and kill anything they want on property they own.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 10:41 AM
 
76 posts, read 174,271 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by deere110 View Post
This thread is a perfect example of why something so simple (having a normal season for black bear hunting) has become so controversial and convoluted in the state of NJ. There are folks on both sides of the argument (animal rights activists and scared suburbanites) who know very little about what they're arguing, or trying to argue. New Jersey Fish and Wildlife has its own biologists and wildlife experts who are perfectly capable of determining what is an acceptable number of bears, how long the season should be, and what a good harvest number should be. After all, NJF&W determines this for every other game animal in the state without much fanfare. When it comes to bears however, NJF&W becomes subject to the whims of animal rights activists who oppose bear hunting for nonsensical reasons and frightened McMansion dwellers who seem to be afraid of their own shadows. Again, the rural dwellers of NJ can get along just fine without the meddling of folks on either side because both of their arguments are equally ridiculous.
Well, I live in prime bear habitat so not sure about your claims about "rural folks" knowing more. Not sure where you live, but the large swaths of Morris County have denser bear populations and more prime bear habitat than large parts of Sussex County and most of Warren County.

New Jersey Fish and Game and virtually all other state boards are disproportionately represent hunter interests over the wider population. This is due to the fact how hunt fees are earmarked to fund these agencies while other funds are diverted away from fish and game departments. Despite hunter myths that they only fund wildlife, non-hunters vastly contribute more funds which can be used to support wildlife as well as generating far more to the state's economy.

More and more biologists are questioning the old guard of treating carnivores, which belongs to all state residents, as part of some large game farm. Carnivores play a vital role in nature and are not normally killed to the extent that game regulations tend to permit. Their intelligence is higher, life histories more complex, and frankly charasmatic for many people. Most people would be opposed someone shooting a stray dog in the woods on ethical grounds so why not a black bear (more intelligent) and coyote (closely related). Is there any wonder why nature documentaries focus more on carnivores than say deer or wild turkey?

Hunting of carnivores creates ecological havoc and practical problems which have been repeated over and over in this thread. Reread my posts and you will see the various explanations from prime sources.

For those reasons, many environmentalists, a number of which also hunt, oppose bear and carnivore hunting in general.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 10:43 AM
 
11,337 posts, read 11,039,869 times
Reputation: 14993
Wow, it's becoming a daily nightmare:


Authorities capture bear from tree behind Union municipal building | NJ.com
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 10:47 AM
 
11,337 posts, read 11,039,869 times
Reputation: 14993
Quote:
Originally Posted by chennai01 View Post

Hunting of carnivores creates ecological havoc and practical problems which have been repeated over and over in this thread. Reread my posts and you will see the various explanations from prime sources.

For those reasons, many environmentalists, a number of which also hunt, oppose bear and carnivore hunting in general.
This is where the left-wing environmental movement gets itself into trouble: By lapsing into irrational obstructionism and attempting to stop the progress of mankind. I think your true motives may be more sinister than you care to admit, even to yourself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 11:00 AM
 
76 posts, read 174,271 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Your whole argument is wrong and agenda-filled. Mine is simple: NO BLACK BEARS, OR OTHER DEADLY BIG GAME, OR OTHER NUISANCE ANIMALS IN MY ENVIRONMENT.

The birds and the bees can stay, so can the squirrels and the chipmunks. Once animals start causing human deaths by proliferating to the point where they are colliding with vehicles on a regular basis, they have to be hunted and harvested. Let the hunters have at it until the problem is resolved. Bear hunting and deer hunting should be allowed ALL THE TIME until the populations are reduced to a manageable level. Manageable means I DON'T SEE THEM OFTEN, and THEY DON'T OFTEN CRASH INTO HUMAN TRAVEL MACHINES.

In less populated areas like the Poconos and the Catskills and far far away from urbia and suburbia, the bears and deer may roam as they see fit. BUT NOT HERE!

Having said that, even in rural areas, landowners should be free to shoot and kill anything they want on property they own.
You can throw all the accusations you like, but your argument is ridiculous. You have proven you are ignorant about the following:

1) Bears being a significant threat to humans. You are 56 times more likely to be killed by a person than bear. As a realtor, have you sold new homes to people in town or sold a home which has more people than it previously had. Congratulations, you have vastly increased the danger to the community more than any numbers of bears residing in the area ever will.

2) Bears have prime habitat in large parts of Morris County as determined by New Jersey Department of Wildlife (which wants to reduce bear populations). You can shout NIMBY, but if you don't like living in bear country go move to the more populated portion Northern New jersey where bears do not permanently reside.

3) Hunting bears will likely cause upward pressure on deer populations increasing deer collisions (far more common than bear collisons), lyme diease, and property damage from deer.

4) Your willful violation of New Jersey law encourages the bear problems you are facing. The authorities should prosecute you. You are a perfect example of why bear problems exist in New Jersey.

5) Isolating bear populations to tiny fragmented landscapes will reduce their genetic viability due to inbreeding.

6) Hunting will not remove bears from problem areas since hunts mostly occur in areas far from homes. Therefore, you are not killing the problem bears.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 11:06 AM
 
76 posts, read 174,271 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
This is where the left-wing environmental movement gets itself into trouble: By lapsing into irrational obstructionism and attempting to stop the progress of mankind. I think your true motives may be more sinister than you care to admit, even to yourself.
Yes, my goal is to turn the country communist and then feed everyone's kid to crocodiles. You nailed me! LOL

No, I would like my children to grow up in a state where people can co-exist with wildlife and enjoy natural beauty. Also, they do not need to grow up with irratioanal fears of boogeymen, whether they be savage bears or "left wing wackos."

As for progress of mankind, you are the one looking back to the 1800s while I'm suggesting innovative solutions by experts in this area of expertise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2012, 11:11 AM
 
76 posts, read 174,271 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Yup, a young dispersing bear wandering into human territory during spring time. These types of bears will only increase as hunting skews the population to more young bears like this.

The bear was extremely dangerous sitting in that tree. Wonder where they hid all the dead humans?

Maybe we should kill all people's dogs since some will eventually get loose in the street?

Seriously, get a grip.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:




Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top