Just wondering ... (Union: low income, credit rating, student loans)
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Government and Unions create and artificial supply and demand environment? Explain? Last time I checked a majority of government workers are union and their compensation isn't based on artificial supply and demand, It's called collective bargaining agreements.
Unions are a club. A club of select few that have access to the work. If I have a position available that has a pool of 100 people, I can pay less than if my candidate pool was 10 right? Fewer qualified people, more skill needed, I have to pay a higher wage.
Unions, wont take in all that apply. Why? Because that lowers their salary power.
Many govt jobs are impossible to get fired from. No motivation to do a good job. Performance and efficiency go out the window. Hire more people, they do less work, then they have to hire more people. Those new people dont do much work either, time to hire more people. Next thing you know you have a workforce of 50 people doing something that 10 efficient people should be doing.
These people dont care about their work performance, because there are zero consequences. See the Passaic Sewer Commission
If you have an endless supply of funding, there is no need to correct the problem. See a private company cant work like that, because if they are run inefficiently, they go out of business. You see, the private companies don't have a tax base they can just hit up for operating expenses whenever they want.
The superintendent of Pre-K for Patterson doesn't need to be making $150k a year.
A toll collector doesn't need to make $70k
The Chief of Police for a 10 man police force doesnt even need to have a job let alone pull a 200k+ a year salary.
Do you not see the waste? I understand some of you who work in these positions may be upset, and feel like we are picking on you, because you don't have any options and would be devastated of you lost your job, and I don't mean to sound heartless, by why does the taxpayer need to be on the hook?
And dont give me collective bargaining, these are the contracts we agreed to x years ago BS. Becuase you know what, x years ago, smoking was all the rage, x years ago, we used asbestos everywhere, X years ago everyone was supersizing their value meal, x years ago, everyone wanted a mcmansion with 4k sq ft on a quarter acre lot. Where am I going with this? That things that seemed like a good idea a few years ago, really aren't. The problem must be stopped.
This can't be a serious question right? You do realize that private for-profit enterprises are in the business to you know,make profits right? You are under ZERO obligation to purchase any of their goods. If you think they charge too much, go with a competitors products/service.
Thats the beauty of capital america. An equal balance of supply and demand. A company can only charge what the market will bare. Unlike governments/unions which create an artificial supply/demand environment.
No Tony ...it was more to illuminate the absolutely miniscule amounts that would be involved if the private industry perks were actually cut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvs
... it could save us all a few cents a month ... maybe about the same amount as taking free e-z pass away from government employees ...
I cannot understand why so many in society feel that elimination of this perk: 1) will change ANYTHING about the prices they pay for their tolls, 2) will change ANYTHING about the state of the economy, and 3) only works to take away what was probably an earned benefit for those employees (i.e.: "Sorry ... We don't have money for increases this year, in lieu of that, we're going to give you free use of our agency's facilities.")
It seems many people here are absolutely amused when these same types of perks are being taken away from public servants ... many of whom are your average middle-class Joes who pay taxes and try to get by, like the rest of you.
Do you realize that not every public worker gets some top of the line medical benefits. Police, Firefighers and teachers, represent a majority of public workers and have varying benefit plans, have varying pension contributions etc. My wife, whom is a teacher has your average Horizon health insurance plan. In comparison my IBEW Union benefits blows her plan out of the water.
There are so many misconceptions about government wages, benefits and pensions that have been conjured up by Chris Christie and his followers.
What there should be is a statewide payscale for teachers. There should be no reason why a well qualified teacher with 5 years experience with a double BA and a masters makes 8-10k less than a teacher of the same experience in another town but its the truth. It's all due to collective bargaining and that right will never be stripped away.
It's always unions this and unions that but during the contracts these unions recieved, the other party had the right to excercise the right to say no, we dont accept those terms.
How many of you in the private sector would say hey, you know what I'm getting paid too much here. Take money from me. Or you go for a new job and you knowingly overshoot your salary desire and the employer says ok we can do that. Are you going to say yeah that's way too much money here? There are a lot of hippocrites here.
I don't want to hear about shared sacrifices either. 5-10 years ago when the private sector was churnning out six figure jobs all over the place no one said a peep. People would laugh at people going the government/state worker route. All of a sudden these workers had/have more job security than the private sector so it becomes more of a OMG look at them problem.
Are their abuses in the public worker system, yes but the private sector abuse is much more and farther reaching. People complain about cops and teachers saving their sick days up and cashing out, legally. meanwhile companies that were taking taxpayer bailouts were sending their executive officers off with 6,7,8 figure buyouts and bonuses. How many companies do we need to bring up that bankrupt employee 401ks, retirement savings etc.
The real problem in NJ and other statesis this, it's called tax income gap. The states aren't getting the same revenue from taxes as they did 5 years ago. Instead of making favorable conditions for employment surges, the federal government continues giving tax breaks to companies that outsource or move jobs overseas. That's the problem.
If you take home 6000 a month and you lose your job or have to take a lessor paying job, does your auto finance, credit cards and mortgage companies care? No you entered into those terms long before any of this. Let's be honest too, no one predicted this economic mess would happen 5,8 or even 10 years ago and no certainly thought it would get this deep and stagnent.
And a lot of these public workers did their part, they went to higher cost medical plans on top of forgoing raises for 1 year, totally screwing themselves out of a few thousand dollars to several thousand dollars due to their raises being pushed back and messing up their step system.
Want this state to get back on it's feet, get people back to work.
WOW! This is SO eloquently stated! Thanks for this! I could never have said it better.
HA! Yeah, I had looked into them after reading a post here by bradykp, but unfortunately, they are not yet in my area. NBD, though, since "my area" will probably be changing this year.
Unions are a club. A club of select few that have access to the work. If I have a position available that has a pool of 100 people, I can pay less than if my candidate pool was 10 right? Fewer qualified people, more skill needed, I have to pay a higher wage.
Unions, wont take in all that apply. Why? Because that lowers their salary power.
Many govt jobs are impossible to get fired from. No motivation to do a good job. Performance and efficiency go out the window. Hire more people, they do less work, then they have to hire more people. Those new people dont do much work either, time to hire more people. Next thing you know you have a workforce of 50 people doing something that 10 efficient people should be doing.
These people dont care about their work performance, because there are zero consequences. See the Passaic Sewer Commission
If you have an endless supply of funding, there is no need to correct the problem. See a private company cant work like that, because if they are run inefficiently, they go out of business. You see, the private companies don't have a tax base they can just hit up for operating expenses whenever they want.
The superintendent of Pre-K for Patterson doesn't need to be making $150k a year.
A toll collector doesn't need to make $70k
The Chief of Police for a 10 man police force doesnt even need to have a job let alone pull a 200k+ a year salary.
Do you not see the waste? I understand some of you who work in these positions may be upset, and feel like we are picking on you, because you don't have any options and would be devastated of you lost your job, and I don't mean to sound heartless, by why does the taxpayer need to be on the hook?
And dont give me collective bargaining, these are the contracts we agreed to x years ago BS. Becuase you know what, x years ago, smoking was all the rage, x years ago, we used asbestos everywhere, X years ago everyone was supersizing their value meal, x years ago, everyone wanted a mcmansion with 4k sq ft on a quarter acre lot. Where am I going with this? That things that seemed like a good idea a few years ago, really aren't. The problem must be stopped.
Fire everyone and rehire at "MARKET" rates.
so you're suggestion the state illegally break binding contractual agreements and rehire at market rates.....tell me what are market rates for teachers, cops and firefighters? Binding contracts are binding contracts. Most of these CBAs are no more than 5 years old, so you're arguement that old things are bad is actually, a bad idea.
And another idea that can be stopped right now is that states can file for Bankruptcy to void these contracts. Can't happen
so you're suggestion the state illegally break binding contractual agreements and rehire at market rates.....tell me what are market rates for teachers, cops and firefighters? Binding contracts are binding contracts. Most of these CBAs are no more than 5 years old, so you're arguement that old things are bad is actually, a bad idea.
And another idea that can be stopped right now is that states can file for Bankruptcy to void these contracts. Can't happen
It should happen....
Why should a tenured music teacher make the same wage as a science teacher? Personally, I don't agree with it.
Get rid of tenure. There is no incentive to TEACH.. Teachers should be on the shortest of leashes. Unfortunately, having many family friends and a few personal ones, they obviously don't agree with me.
Why? Because sadly that's what a good amount of people go into teaching for..the security tenure provides is a huge boon.
Why are cops allowed to get so out of shape? I mean, let's not get into details about how many police depts are overstaffed...but why is somebody who is entrusted to uphold my safety allowed to completely let their physical condition go in the toilet? Too bad I don't have the right to have somebody else protect and serve me...
Much of my points Tuck already made...and he is absolutely right. State programs are not much different than private companies. They actually have less incentive to provide better service. And whatever state subsidies are leftover are put back into to "lobby" and keep the budgets status quo.
Beauracracy is everywhere....same game, just different terminology.
Tenure laws do need to be changed, not revoked like with Christie's plan. Here's what will happen if tenrue laws were revoked, A teacher works 5 years on a contract makes 55k. At the end of that proposed 5 year contract, the towns will definitely see fit to cut loose a lot those teachers (good or bad) and slot 45k a year teachers in their place. What needs to happen is have third party evaluations. Not some principal or assistant principle. Third party evaluators that have no ties to any school system. And it should be more than once a year.
Tenure laws do need to be changed, not revoked like with Christie's plan. Here's what will happen if tenrue laws were revoked, A teacher works 5 years on a contract makes 55k. At the end of that proposed 5 year contract, the towns will definitely see fit to cut loose a lot those teachers (good or bad) and slot 45k a year teachers in their place. What needs to happen is have third party evaluations. Not some principal or assistant principle. Third party evaluators that have no ties to any school system. And it should be more than once a year.
to me without giving it too much thought... It just seems like there is too much of a window for corruption.
so you're suggestion the state illegally break binding contractual agreements and rehire at market rates.....tell me what are market rates for teachers, cops and firefighters? Binding contracts are binding contracts. Most of these CBAs are no more than 5 years old, so you're arguement that old things are bad is actually, a bad idea.
And another idea that can be stopped right now is that states can file for Bankruptcy to void these contracts. Can't happen
Market rate is market rate. If the state/townships put out advertisements for any of these newly opened positions for 30k/40k etc and they get a flood of applicants, then obviously thats the market rate right? If they cant fill it at 40k, then they up to 50k, if they can't fill it at 50k, they up it to 60k, so forth and so on until the positions are filled.
You see here is my beef with a majority of the state/union workers. I say majority becuase not all are lazy greasy slimeballs. Some are honest hardworking people. That being said a majority of them, feel ENTITLED to good wage. As if it is their right. Quite frankly, you are entitled to $h!t. A person should be compensated for their skill set. Not becuase there brother/aunt/uncle/neighbor/father has an in on some cushy job.
Go take an Econmoics 101 class. The open market has a really cool way of balancing itself out.
F*** the contracts, if the state cant afford it, they cant afford it. Someone signs a contract to buy my house and loses their job a few days before closing and cant close, what am I going to do? Go to their house with a gun and make them buy it? Spend zillions in litigation and legal fees FORCING them to buy something they OBVIOUSLY CANT AFFORD!!! The system is broke.
Govt is bloated
Unions create an artificial supply/demand curve.
Like I said, FIRE EVERYONE and rehire at market rates. The market sets wages, not someones brothers brother.
Last edited by TonyStarksNJ; 01-25-2011 at 04:46 AM..
Tenure laws do need to be changed, not revoked like with Christie's plan. Here's what will happen if tenrue laws were revoked, A teacher works 5 years on a contract makes 55k. At the end of that proposed 5 year contract, the towns will definitely see fit to cut loose a lot those teachers (good or bad) and slot 45k a year teachers in their place.
You see, again, FLAWED LOGIC. So what is wrong with the school districts if they take this route?? If they can hire someone to do the same job for a lower rate, why wouldn't they? That 45k would seem to be the MARKET RATE. If they can't get a qualified candidate, then they need to offer more. This creates COMPETITION/COMPETIVENESS. If a teacher knows that they don't have a guarantee, they will work HARDER to prove their worth. Perform better. If not, they get cut loose, and are left looking for another job.
Do you know how many teachers are out of work looking for jobs right now?? A LOT. I guarantee you a bunch of them are better teachers than the ones who go through the motions and are tenured, becuase they CAN'T GET FIRED.
See, again, you have this mentality that a teacher, DESERVES to make that 55k. But if there is someone out there, that can do the same job for 45k, then guess what, she doesnt deserve the 55k. Get it???
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