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Old 02-23-2011, 07:18 PM
 
1,931 posts, read 3,414,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
she would only need to work a few years and she would get health benefits and pension for life.

25 years to be exact.
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Old 02-23-2011, 08:10 PM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,705,240 times
Reputation: 24590
Quote:
Originally Posted by bababua View Post
25 years to be exact.
you have a link for this fact? i believe it varies so im impressed that you know it is 25 years to be exact.
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Old 02-24-2011, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,890 posts, read 18,755,547 times
Reputation: 3146
Quote:
Originally Posted by bababua View Post
Can you please explain to me how I turned out ok? I went to the same schools that these failures attended. Let me guess teachers taught me and let the others to rot? Did I just get lucky? Let me guess it was osmosis? Come on enlighten me on why I made it out and I went to the same schools? Please please help me out. I will give you a simple one...it was my family that made me learn. It was my dad who made sure I did my homework. It was my parents who through thick and thin stayed together because they had two kids that they cared very greatly about. NO charter, no fancy shmancy stuff just good hard work. Yes I said they had two kids, imagine that. The blame game in the inner city falls on the population and not schools or government. The Gop is for self reliance unless it doesnt fit their agenda. An absolute joke is what most of you are who have never spent a day in the inner city or their schools. You should try it some time and tell me those families want to learn. They want to make excuses as it seems some of you do as well.
Lol, because there is one success and thousands of failures, it means everything is ok. You are being silly in saying, because no one shared the exact same experience as you they can't understand a situation.

Your experience is pretty much immaterial, it is a fact that in aggregate the schools in the inner city are failing. It is equally true that where choice has been tried in the cities it has worked.

Why are you such a staunch defender of the status quo? I believe the inner city kids deserve the same educational opportunity the Presidents kids have, don' t you?
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Old 02-24-2011, 06:57 AM
 
Location: New Jersey/Florida
5,818 posts, read 12,628,316 times
Reputation: 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhelder View Post
Wow. This has to be one of the most bizarre statements I've seen on this board, and there have been a whole lot lately.

Do you really think the unions are against school choice?!? Really?!? Most unions, including my own, would love for there to be true school choice.

It's the affluent WASPs that are the biggest factor in preventing true school choice in NJ and many other areas. They are the ones who would riot if we were to have true school choice. Heaven forbid Caitlyn (with a "C', not a "K") should have to be in the same class as LaToya, even though LaToya may be a much nicer girl and a much better student.

I would love to see the day when every school district is truly integrated, by race, religion, socioeconomic levels, academic abilities, etc. It will not happen anytime soon, unfortunately. But if you think it's because of the unions... well, I don't know what else I can say.
Intelligent post. Most on this board want school choice because they think it will bust up the teachers union and tenure. So how about we bus the kids from say downtown Newark and bring them to Upper Saddle River or Holmdel. That's school choice. LMAO. They would riot in the streets.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:32 AM
 
612 posts, read 1,011,223 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhelder View Post
Wow. This has to be one of the most bizarre statements I've seen on this board, and there have been a whole lot lately.

Do you really think the unions are against school choice?!? Really?!? Most unions, including my own, would love for there to be true school choice.

It's the affluent WASPs that are the biggest factor in preventing true school choice in NJ and many other areas. They are the ones who would riot if we were to have true school choice. Heaven forbid Caitlyn (with a "C', not a "K") should have to be in the same class as LaToya, even though LaToya may be a much nicer girl and a much better student.

I would love to see the day when every school district is truly integrated, by race, religion, socioeconomic levels, academic abilities, etc. It will not happen anytime soon, unfortunately. But if you think it's because of the unions... well, I don't know what else I can say.
I'm not sure if you are speaking on your behalf or the unions behalf. The unions position is that school vouchers are a big no no. Yes, plenty of teachers that belong to the union believe school vouchers and choice should be granted. But as far as the union leadership and the people putting out the statements go, the union is 100% against vouchers and school choice. It's obvious as to why a bad school district would be against this. I'm still trying to figure out why suburban school districts are unionized with the inner city abbot districts. We are fighting over the same piece of pie.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:33 AM
 
612 posts, read 1,011,223 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by JERSEY MAN View Post
Intelligent post. Most on this board want school choice because they think it will bust up the teachers union and tenure. So how about we bus the kids from say downtown Newark and bring them to Upper Saddle River or Holmdel. That's school choice. LMAO. They would riot in the streets.
As far a choice goes, yes kids from Newark should have the option of going somewhere else. That being said, the school districts they go to should also have the choice to send them packing back to Newark the second they cause trouble.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,705,240 times
Reputation: 24590
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhelder View Post
Wow. This has to be one of the most bizarre statements I've seen on this board, and there have been a whole lot lately.

Do you really think the unions are against school choice?!? Really?!? Most unions, including my own, would love for there to be true school choice.

It's the affluent WASPs that are the biggest factor in preventing true school choice in NJ and many other areas. They are the ones who would riot if we were to have true school choice. Heaven forbid Caitlyn (with a "C', not a "K") should have to be in the same class as LaToya, even though LaToya may be a much nicer girl and a much better student.

I would love to see the day when every school district is truly integrated, by race, religion, socioeconomic levels, academic abilities, etc. It will not happen anytime soon, unfortunately. But if you think it's because of the unions... well, I don't know what else I can say.
it seems you are confusing "school choice" with the right of parents to send their kids to any of the existing public schools. thats not what most people mean when they are talking about school choice. they mean options other than the existing public schools which would take away jobs from public employees. they mean to take public dollars and allow schools other than the existing public schools to be able to access them if people choose to choose a different school than the existing public one in their town.

it is kind of comical that you have chosen to think of "school choice" in your own way like that.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:40 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,406,479 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
Lol, because there is one success and thousands of failures, it means everything is ok. You are being silly in saying, because no one shared the exact same experience as you they can't understand a situation.

Your experience is pretty much immaterial, it is a fact that in aggregate the schools in the inner city are failing. It is equally true that where choice has been tried in the cities it has worked.

Why are you such a staunch defender of the status quo? I believe the inner city kids deserve the same educational opportunity the Presidents kids have, don' t you?
where is the data that where choice has been tried in cities it worked? i'm asking honestly, not critically. I know that charter schools have shown no substantial increase over regular student population, but that's a broad-based conclusion. also, there hasn't been any true expiriment because what typically happens with choice is the parents who generally care more are the ones who take their kids out of the bad school and move them to the good school, and it can be argued those students probably would have had similar results at the bad school largely because their parents are more involved.

i'm not saying don't try new ideas...but i don't think i've seen clear evidence that choice "works". maybe there is something specific to cities that shows it does though. please share.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:50 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,697,549 times
Reputation: 14622
People seem to have very divergent ideas of "choice". One the union supports, one it does not.

The first form of choice is vouchers to private or charter schools. The union is against these becasue those schools are not part of the union. The more kids that end up in private or charter schools, the less union teachers are needed in the remaining schools. They will throw out statistics that they aren't any better than the public schools and the public schools could use the money. They are probably right, but the real reason is because teachers at private and charter schools aren't part of the union.

The second is something that was actually recently passed. It would allow schools anywhere to open up their doors to accept students from other districts. The districts where the kids come from need to provide transportation and the students share of state funding follows them. Of course it is an opt in program and not everyone participates. The union was fine with this because it didn't erode their power base.

The problem with truly opening up all the schools isn't really about race. It's about the fact that it can never be done fairly. You can't just take every kid from Camden and bus them to Cherry Hill or Haddonfield, those schools simply don't have the room. You might be able to take the top 5%, but you can't take the rest. Someone has to get the short stick. The solution is fixing the urban schools. Of course, that solution has alluded us for say 50 years or so.
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:50 AM
 
1,527 posts, read 4,064,437 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
where is the data that where choice has been tried in cities it worked? i'm asking honestly, not critically. I know that charter schools have shown no substantial increase over regular student population, but that's a broad-based conclusion. also, there hasn't been any true expiriment because what typically happens with choice is the parents who generally care more are the ones who take their kids out of the bad school and move them to the good school, and it can be argued those students probably would have had similar results at the bad school largely because their parents are more involved.

i'm not saying don't try new ideas...but i don't think i've seen clear evidence that choice "works". maybe there is something specific to cities that shows it does though. please share.
I support school choice based on a fundamental belief that parents know what is best for their children. Even poor parents know what is best for their children, contrary to what many of the educational liberal elite believe. Families should be empowered to pick the school that is best for their family, not a bureaucrat sitting looking at a map and zoning families into schools.

To me, it's not only about performance on a test. If families are happier, if students feel safer, even if the almighty test scores don't zoom up, that would be a good thing. Even if families feel empowered to stand up to their current neighborhood schools because they know that they have other options if it doesn't work out there, great. Competition can only make the neighborhood public schools better, not worse.

I would like to see the evidence that shows that we should stick with this system where almost every tax dollar for education has to be filtered through the NJEA.
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