Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-20-2011, 06:32 PM
 
Location: NJ/NY
18,481 posts, read 15,279,839 times
Reputation: 14349

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by bababua View Post
Elective surgery? Thanks for proving my point.
I must have missed your point then. Or maybe you are not understanding mine. About half the surgeries we do are elective, and elective surgeries pay better than emergencies. Remember, if someone comes in as an emergency, I treat them whether they have insurance or not. If EVERYONE decided not to have them, or to go to someone else, I would take a 70% pay cut. I am completely reliant on the free market for my income.

when your student's parents cant pay taxes, other tax payers shoulder the burden. You dont personally teach them for free. When I treat someone without insurance, I take the hit and I am working for free. Taxpayers pay the hospital back, but I am SOL. I'm not complaining about it, as I knew about it when I chose my job. I'm only mentioning it to point out the difference between my private sector job and your public sector job.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-20-2011, 07:13 PM
 
1,931 posts, read 3,416,512 times
Reputation: 956
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
how did my argument change? your bank is a private company and they have an obligation to be competitive so i trust that they will try to get the best employees at the lowest prices. its a different ballgame when it comes to public employees. the general rule no matter what the economic situation is, you try to get the employees that can do the job to your liking for as little money as possible.

oh and under no circumstances do you pay for the health benefits of retirees.

Ok because you are having a hard time with this one. A bank manager makes around 60 to 120k plus bonus. In todays economy do you think its possible to get someone who is capable and willing to do the job for say 40k to 70k. The answer is yes because people are hurting. So by your logic every single bank manager has been fired and they brought someone in for half the pay. Did that happen or did I miss something. Come on Mr. Race to the bottom man.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 07:16 PM
 
1,931 posts, read 3,416,512 times
Reputation: 956
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
I must have missed your point then. Or maybe you are not understanding mine. About half the surgeries we do are elective, and elective surgeries pay better than emergencies. Remember, if someone comes in as an emergency, I treat them whether they have insurance or not. If EVERYONE decided not to have them, or to go to someone else, I would take a 70% pay cut. I am completely reliant on the free market for my income.

when your student's parents cant pay taxes, other tax payers shoulder the burden. You dont personally teach them for free. When I treat someone without insurance, I take the hit and I am working for free. Taxpayers pay the hospital back, but I am SOL. I'm not complaining about it, as I knew about it when I chose my job. I'm only mentioning it to point out the difference between my private sector job and your public sector job.

the point you missed was people will still continue to go to the emergency room regardless if times are tough or not because they NEED to go. Dont bring up surgeries that are not needed. Those are luxuries for the most part.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Somerset, NJ
505 posts, read 2,337,145 times
Reputation: 135
bababua - first thing, please don't compare a police officer or fire fighter to a teacher again. The only thing they have in common is that they are employed by the local government.

I have to say this....I appreciate teachers for what they do...it's a job that I could never do....

That being said, I don't think that it's the teachers that are to blame. I think the first place to start pointing fingers is at the school administration. My high school had 2 principals and 2 vice-principals....companies only have 1 ceo, the US only has 1 President. If the ENTIRE COUNTRY needs only 1 president....why does a school need multiple? Seems like lots of waste right there.

And yes...teachers are contributing to their health bene's, what is it....1.5%? If I was contributing 1.5% of my salary and paying what I paid now, I'd be making over $750,000....oh yeah, I don't even have prescription covereage.

I'm not whining about it - I chose my profession. The beauty of our country is that is was founded on the basis of being changed if what we were doing didn't work....what we are doing isn't working, and needs to be changed.

I think the first place to start is pensions in general. If you have a NJ state pension and leave the state.....your pension should be adjusted based on the cost of living in that state, period. You made the money here, the taxpayers here are paying your pension, you spend the money here - or lose most of it....sorry!

Second, get rid of all the bloated administration and staff. I need an assistant - but I can't afford one right now, so I don't have one....neither can the schools right now...sorry!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Weehawken, NJ
2,179 posts, read 6,721,557 times
Reputation: 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by bababua View Post
Am I missing something? The average Wisconsin teachers makes 52k plus great benefits. The average NJ teacher makes 57k plus great benefits. The average cost of living in Wisconsin is much much lower. Just by looking at a few homes in the Madison and Green Bay area tells me cost of homes are just about half of that in NJ. Not to mention it seems as if Wisconsin teachers have not payed into their pension until possibly this year. Can someone who bashes teacher pay tell me how NJ teachers are getting over on taxpayers? Relative to Wisconsin, NJ teachers are getting shafted. I know times are tough but it seems as if we actually get a good deal in regards to teaching. Can someone please help me out on this one. I am a bit confused on the numbers.

Just looked up some info on a site that rates cost of living in regards to teachers salary and compensation. NJ ranks 36 in the nation, Wisconsin ranks 28 so I guess I was right. I guess NJ teachers arent getting rich. Not to mention how can it be that teachers in Wisconsin are making 52k per year yet property taxes are nearly nothing compared to NJ? Who is pulling the wool over all of our eyes? Or should I say where's the money?
Ask the union leaders.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 09:54 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,421,366 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
i believe in the past this concept of lower pay but higher benefits was true. i do not believe it still holds true.
the data shows that it is true. so you can believe whatever you'd like. it's unfortunate for your beliefs though that there is data out there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 09:58 PM
 
20,350 posts, read 19,958,548 times
Reputation: 13471
Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownJerseyCity View Post
Ask the union leaders.....
....or WI's taxpayers. They're the ones with skin in that game.

My game is here in NJ and I think NJ's overall tax burden that's placed on it's citizen's shoulders is ridiculous.

Even Lou Greenwald, one of the people responsible for the mess, agrees.

Legislator helps drive up New Jersey property taxes then complains about it « A New Jersey Conservative
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 09:59 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,421,366 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
bradykp: I am going to go on a little rant here, and it is not really directed at you.

If you want to make a lot of money, you dont go into pediatrics. If you want to make a lot of money, you dont go into teaching. In your example, not only does becoming an orthopedic surgeon require a lot more skill than becoming a pediatrician, it is also a lot harder to become an orthopedic surgeon. Only the top students from good medical schools are granted residency in orthopedics. Anyone who graduates any med school can get a pediatric residency. But people know that going in. What I cant stand is the guy who becomes a pediatrician and then complains that they are underpaid and other doctors are overpaid. I feel like screaming at them that it was like that when you chose your profession. You should have thought about that back then. Instead you chose what you wanted to do. You chose what would make you happier. Well, that is great for you, but dont try to change the rules now. Live with your decision. If salary is important to you, pick a job that pays well. I think I might be happier playing guitar at the local saloon for a living, but you know what? They dont make enough for the type of lifestyle I want.

If you are wondering what this has to do with teachers, it is an analogy. If you want to become a public employee, that is great, but you have to go in realizing that you are paid with tax dollars and are subject to the whim of public sentiment which is at the whim of the economy. The problem is, when you have a bad economy, private sector workers dont get raises, they lose benefits, and many even lose their jobs. When this happens, you have to expect resentment about public sector workers who's unions seem to have insulated them from the problems the average private sector worker has to deal with. ON TOP OF THAT, to make matters even worse, these people who are getting less are FORCED to pay the same or MORE to keep the public sector workers salaries and benefits high while their own have been greatly diminished.

If people dont want to pay private sector workers for their products and services, they go out of business and lose their jobs. If people dont want to pay public sector workers for their products and services, well thats just tough luck because we are going to take your money anyway.

To the OP, I would get paid roughly the same in WI as I get in NJ, in spite of the cost of living differences, and at my salary, that accounts for a HUGE difference in life style. It is the price we pay to live in NJ instead of WI. It is worth it.
of course. but my point was that people of similar education levels don't always get paid the same. that's why i used these two professions within the medical field as an example. of course, i basically picked the two extremes.

my wife is in the same boat as you. she'd get basically the same salary in WI as NJ. i certainly wouldnt though. but i could be a stay at home dad on her salary in WI!

i don't think most people that go into education do it to make large amounts of money. i think the brush they are painted with is to establish a "them vs us" mentality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 10:01 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,421,366 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by bababua View Post
Great stuff. So basically when times are tough we should allow them to decide if they want schools,cops or firefighters. Do people choose not to go to the hospital during tough times? You act as if those things mentioned are luxuries.
and that's the weakness of the argument that these places should "be run like private companies". they aren't private companies. they are public goods that we need to remain high quality in good times and bad. but that doesn't matter to people who want to keep the narrative rolling along.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 10:02 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,421,366 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
Answer to question #1: No, but we should certainly reassess what we can afford to give them in return for their services, as is being done across the country.

Answer to question #2: Absolutely, people choose not to go to the hospital during tough times. An emergency is an emergency, but we have seen a huge drop off in elective surgeries since the recession began. People lose jobs, and then insurance, and then they are willing to live with their knee pain instead of paying for surgery out of pocket. Then you have all the people who do have jobs and insurance, but are too afraid of losing their jobs to take the time off to recover from surgery. The areas where we have seen the biggest drop offs have been Ortho Surgery, Bariatric Surgery, and of course, Plastics. The last 2 years I have had a decrease in revenue of 15% each year. As I said, nobody in the private sector is immune to recessions.
the ortho group my sister works in had their best year ever in 2010. following up to their prior best year every in 2009.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:




Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top