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marc- I said similar jobs no one said all federal employees make more. I said federal employees in similar job class. Also why look at only what is paid for HC why not look at the entire compensation structure?
Tom,
I honestly have no idea as to how to compare federal jobs and private sector jobs to state jobs.
I think the old civil service pension system is comparable to the current state system; Not sure how the current federal employee pension compares. I know the federal employee pension system is in part like a 401K, so the pension is less. In the private sector, most only have a 401K plan.
I noted the health care costs only because there are a lot of lower paid federal and private sector employees who have been paying their fair share for many years, so I'm not understanding why state employees think it's unfair that they will have to pay increased premiums, especially with a sliding scale. As for retirees, there are many federal and private sector retirees who receive the same annual dollar amount in retirement as NJ public employees, but must continue paying for their HC benefits.
All I'm saying is the current system is unsustainable and public employees and retirees need to contribute their fair share.
First of all, you pick a very complicated issue that applies to a minority of NJ State pensioners. The wages of most state and local employees (including teachers) in NJ are subject to Social Security Tax, and hence the Windfall Elimination Provision upon retirement is mute since it doesn't apply. (That's why most people have never heard of it!)
You allege that my statement is "totally incorrect." That would mean a NJ state pension recipient who has enjoyed one of the social-security-exempt positions is not entitled to any Social Security benefits on earnings from other jobs in which they've paid Social Security Tax into the system. You mention that you are one of these people. Yet you also acknowledge you will receive some social security payment, yes?
Digging a little deeper, the 'Windfall Elimination Provision' reduces Social Security benefits for people in your shoes by a maximum of $380.50 per month. Hence you will receive a portion, likely the majority, of your social security benefits.
Yet this is a tangent issue, is it not? The vast majority of state pensioners have also paid into Social Security and are enjoying Social Security Income in their retirement -- and rightly so, they've paid into it. Hence they receive 'pension... plus social security' making my initial statement totally correct.
One could argue that a certain small minority of state pensioners -- those who have not paid a penny into the Social Security system over their lifetimes -- do not get social security benefits in retirement. AGREED... but what have they got to complain about? They haven't paid anything into the system!
Teachers should lobby for new teachers to be made eligible for the Alternative Benefit Plan that is available to Higher Education educators. It is a significantly better plan than the current pension terms new teachers are eligible for.
Maverick you do know that with the 9% pension boost the members had their contributions raised 60-70% right
Yes... and we'd probably agree that the 9% pension boost was the 'bait' to get the teachers to buy into the dramatic increase in their 'required contribution.' The deal so intoxicated the union (headed by those close to retirement who'd really enjoy the maximized benefit) that they let their employer (the state) off the hook for a decade-and-a-half without forcing it to make its required contribution -- akin to an employer defaulting on its "matching contributions" in a 401(k). Hence, the financial choas we find ourselves in today.
I am sorry if I wasn't clear. I thought I said that my issue with changing retires benefits is specifically making them pay 23% of their health care premium, which equates to thousands of dollars. It will be even more if the SHBP is killed due to stopping new hires from entering it and those retirees have to go on private insurance.
While we are doing "fact checks" and 80 year old would have retired much longer ago than 2001. That means the retired on n/60.
And if you are going to offer anecdotal stories as evidence so can I. My aunt retired in 1993 after 31 years as a middle school math teacher, with the top of her guide being around 64K. That would put her monthly around a little over 1K and social security would be what? 1.5K? Obviously she was getting COLAs but thats hardly raking it in. I am also sorry that is more than you make.
I am also not ignorant, nor particularly youthful. I may not be a vested teacher but I worked in private industry for years, I am well aware of the multitude of issues that have lead to this problem but I recognize that in a civilized society we should not pull the chair out from our retirees who have far fewer years to react to this sea change.
A good discussion -- thank you!
I understand your point in the first paragraph. We can respectfully disagree. Retirees 65 and up have the Medicare safety net. The SHBP could save a fortune if the plan converted into MediGap-plus style plan upon a participant reaching age 65. In this case, a fixed percentage contribution required of retirees would still be far less then their younger, currently employed next-generation counterparts pay for their own coverage. But it helps spread the pain...
Yes, the 80 year old did retire on N/60... so... no change to their calculation per my plan. Only recalculate for those retired at N/55.
Aunt's retirement income: How do you come up with just a thousand per month? About $2700+/- in pension alone without colas, no? (31/60)*63K+/-.
Paragraph 4: We'll respectfully agree to disagree. No, I don't want to 'pull the chair out' from our retirees but I demand some accountability from the generation whose deficit spending and mis-allocation of financial resources created this mess -- and that wasn't our kids whom we're now trying to stick with the older folks' bill.
Maverick- the NJEA went to court to require funding on a yearly basis - they lost. They did not let anyone off the hook.
marc- federal employees get both a 401k plan and a defined benefit pension. You also can compare accountants in the federal system to accountants in the State system, engineers, lawyers all kinds of titles. The pay differential is stark.
People who were retired received the 9% pension increase- so in effect everyone became years/55 even if you retired at years/60
we arent talking about the middle class with these public union employees. we are talking about a privelaged class that benefits as parasites above the middle class.
Police, Firemen and Teachers are Upper Class? What then would you call the Millionaires Christie gave all of the Tax Breaks too?
TRENTON — In an explosive tirade that fired up some demonstrators and embarrassed others, a national union leader went nuclear on Gov. Chris Christie, calling him a Nazi over and over.
"Welcome to Nazi Germany," Christopher Shelton, a top official at the Communication Workers of America, told thousands of protesters today outside the Statehouse in Trenton. "The first thing that the Nazis and Adolf Hitler did was go after the unions."
In an extreme example of disaffection with both parties, Shelton also went after Senate President Stephen Sweeney (D-Gloucester) and Assembly Speaker Sheila Oliver (D-Essex).
"Adolf Christie’s generals," he called them, because both are backing a bill that would increase pension and health benefit costs for public workers.
About 3,500 public employees rallied outside the Statehouse annex this morning in protest of legislation that would overhaul the state's pension and health care system. One union representative called Gov. Chris Christie a Nazi, while others marched toward the front door of the Statehouse annex. The legislation (S2937) drew a firestorm of criticism inside and outside the Statehouse before it passed the Senate budget committee.
"Any politician who stands up against collective bargaining, in this state or any other, is not a Democrat," Shelton said. "They’re Nazis, goddamn it."
I was there. Many people were booing his statements.
Additionally, the very next person to talk was a legislator, and he rightly, condemned those remarks. No one booed him.
Maverick- the NJEA went to court to require funding on a yearly basis - they lost. They did not let anyone off the hook.
...People who were retired received the 9% pension increase- so in effect everyone became years/55 even if you retired at years/60
Court: Agreed, but even afterwards, the NJEA endorsed for re-election some of the very legislators who misdirected the funds! 'Trust me'... yeah, right! (enough said)
Pension adjustment to N/55 for back pensioners: I did not know this... thanks for enlightening me. This also changes my answer to lkb0714 as my suggestion would reduce her aunt's monthly pension back to its pre-2001 amount (plus colas).
Don't think anyone is trying to screw our hard working public employees. Only looking for them to pay their fair share.
Not sure how public employees can even think that free health benefits for life in retirement is a fair share.
The "robbing" is by forcing new hires out of the SHBP and instead of paying their premiums to the state, and thus adding to the income of the state budget; this bill forces municipalities to buy private insurance through private insurance brokers (like Connor Strong). This means not only are the teachers being told to give money to private companies but the taxpayer is also being forced to pay more.
Maybe some taxpayers are would rather their taxes go to private companies instead of back into the general fund but I am not one of them.
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'Windfall Elimination Provision' a mute issue for most pensioners.
'Trust me'... yeah, right! (enough said)
