Can you recommend a neighborhood in Livingston (Orange, Maplewood: real estate, 2013)
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We're contemplating moving to the burbs in NJ that offer good NYC commutes (tired of City living). Our budget is somewhere between $1.2MM to $2MM and we would like to spend less than $45k annually in property taxes if possible.
At this price, just by looking at realtor.com, it seems that we can get a much better quality house in Livingston than in Short Hills / Summit. We're fine with a bus / PATH commute. While we know that there isn't much to do there, it does not concern us as we're going to spend most of our day in NYC at work anyways (and always have the option of spending time after work there when we feel the need for nightlife).
We've heard that Livingston has various enclaves of homes in that budget (Bel Air, Bel Air Woods, Laurel Hill, Chestnut Hill, Riker Hill, etc).
Could someone familiar please enlighten us of the differences between these neighborhoods. Which of these are generally preferred / sought after? For what reasons? Are there demographic differences between them (though not essential, we definitely value diversity)?
Additionally:
1. What are some of the the better pre-schools in that area (could even be in a neighboring town)?
2. What are our options in after-school classes (gymnastics, soccer, etc)?
Hi CTC2- was wondering if you got any feedback on your queries regarding the area and pre-schools? I am in a similar situation (with a different budget) and would like to know if you got any feedback.
Hi CTC2- was wondering if you got any feedback on your queries regarding the area and pre-schools? I am in a similar situation (with a different budget) and would like to know if you got any feedback.
I did get substantial feedback but nothing on this forum.
It's a great town that offers a great value for money. Great schools, in-town sports program's for kids, diversity (~50% Jewish, ~25% Asian).
Perhaps of your specific interest: Livingston has TWO independent Indian schools / associations. One that offers a very well-run Hindi school (approx 180 students) and another that offers a Indian culture / Gujarathi / Tamil learning. There are similar Chinese programs in town as well. Add to this other cultural programs (2 Diwali and Holi parties, etc).
No real bad areas. Where you choose to live depends on your preference: if you want to be close to Rt 10 shopping, live on the west side of town. If you want to be closer to Manhattan, stay East. If you like to spend time visiting Millburn / SH / Maplewood / Summit, stay south. If you want to be close to 280, keep north. There are enclaves of relatively larger homes - PM me for more info if interested.
All elementary schools (unlike towns like Summit) are more or less equally good, so that shouldn't factor in location to buy.
Pre-schools: the good ones I know are JCC (awesome on-site after school sports classes), a Montessori school on S Livingston ave and if those aren't to your liking, there are some in the neighbouring towns. PM me and I can supply details if interested.
Daycares: quite a few around: Learning Experience, Peanut Shell, Tutor Time etc. visit all of them, I'm sure there's one you'll like.
I searched for the reasons why this town is so much cheaper than its competing regulars (Summit, Millburn / SH, Chatham, etc). The main reasons cited to me by some were (1) lack of train station, (2) lack of a real downtown (3) less pretty than neighbouring towns (4) diversity(?!)
Bottom line: we're very happy homeowners here.
I found the following titbits to be useful in our search:
(1) Summit school system does not have busing. We're within a mile from the school and yet the bus comes to our doorstep
(2) There are advantages of living in a bigger town in today's recessionary scenario: for example, Livingston has ~7 police cars. Millburn / SH has 3. My friends' neighbor's place in SH got broken into recently. The alarm went off but it took the police 25 min to arrive.
(3) residents in these towns spend a fair amount of time in the neighbouring downtowns anyways alleviating the 'lack of a pretty downtown' factor
(4) the 'lack of train station' factor is luckily quite overrated. There are very effective workarounds (you can search on this forum)
(5) factor in area elevation in your search! You can get an elevation map from the town hall. Whetherl your basement shall have 4 ft of water or 0 post-hurricane flooding is now quite an important trait after 2011 events! We didn't get flooded in the hurricane but our friends about 1/2 mile away lost about $200k due to basement flooding.
Thanks for the insightful commentary. My wife and I are moving to Livingston later this month and I will be commuting to NYC (midtown) daily, so I'm wondering what exactly you mean by:
"the 'lack of train station' factor is luckily quite overrated. There are very effective workarounds (you can search on this forum)"
I am not a big fan of the bus and was planning to drive to the South Orange train station and take the train to Penn Station from there, but am curious if you have better/alternate suggestions.
Thanks for the insightful commentary. My wife and I are moving to Livingston later this month and I will be commuting to NYC (midtown) daily, so I'm wondering what exactly you mean by:
"the 'lack of train station' factor is luckily quite overrated. There are very effective workarounds (you can search on this forum)"
I am not a big fan of the bus and was planning to drive to the South Orange train station and take the train to Penn Station from there, but am curious if you have better/alternate suggestions.
Thanks!
There is a rather long wait for parking permits for the SO station. While there are a very limited number of daily parking spaces, they fill up extremely early, (I have heard of none being available at 6am) Best bet is to hop on the Jitney at the mall Livingston Express Shuttle | Parking is free and the jitney itself is $70 a month. The trip to the SO train station takes approx 15 min. The cost of the shuttle/train into NYC is $1,500 less a year than taking the bus, which is an added bonus.
FWIW, you might also want to consider looking just a few miles west at the Chathams.(they are adjacent to Summit) Better schools, lower property taxes, and a train station on the midtown direct line. There are some wonderful homes in your price range. The commute into midtown will be right around an hour. (about the same as the time it takes to use the jitney/SO train) Madison just west of the Chathams is also a good choice. Again stellar schools, midtown direct train station, lower taxes. All three towns are great places to raise a family. One notable difference between Livingston and Madison/the Chathams is that Livingston is a much larger, more crowded town.
FWIW, you might also want to consider looking just a few miles west at the Chathams.(they are adjacent to Summit) Better schools, lower property taxes, and a train station on the midtown direct line. There are some wonderful homes in your price range. The commute into midtown will be right around an hour. (about the same as the time it takes to use the jitney/SO train) Madison just west of the Chathams is also a good choice. Again stellar schools, midtown direct train station, lower taxes. All three towns are great places to raise a family. One notable difference between Livingston and Madison/the Chathams is that Livingston is a much larger, more crowded town.
HTH
KoalaNJ
aptyr, Since you are not in the "deciding phase" anymore, this poster's opinion isn't really relevant at this point, but I should point out that there are quite a few inaccuracies (to put it nicely) in this post. Livingston is far less crowded than either Madison or Chatham. Livingston has more people, so it is tempting for someone that wants to steer you somewhere else to use that information to do so. But the truth is, Livingston covers A LOT more land than Madison or Chatham. In fact Livingston has HALF as many people per square mile as either of the two towns this poster mentioned.
While we are talking about fallacies, the schools are not better as this poster would have you believe. They rank right about the same in every list. There have been many years that Livingston ranked a few points higher and a few points lower than the other 2 districts. So does that mean the years Livingston ranks higher, that it is a better school district in THOSE years, but not in the years it ranks a few points lower? You are comparing apples to apples.
HERE is another thread where this poster is trying to mislead another poster by steering them toward Chatham and Madison, because Livingston is "too far of a drive" from Florham Park (even though it is right next door). I am starting to wonder if this poster sells real estate in Chatham and Madison.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 06-15-2013 at 01:52 PM..
aptyr, Since you are not in the "deciding phase" anymore, this poster's opinion isn't really relevant at this point, but I should point out that there are quite a few inaccuracies (to put it nicely) in this post. Livingston is far less crowded than either Madison or Chatham. Livingston has more people, so it is tempting for someone that wants to steer you somewhere else to use that information to do so. But the truth is, Livingston covers A LOT more land than Madison or Chatham. In fact Livingston has HALF as many people per square mile as either of the two towns this poster mentioned.
While we are talking about fallacies, the schools are not better as this poster would have you believe. They rank right about the same in every list. There have been many years that Livingston ranked a few points higher and a few points lower than the other 2 districts. So does that mean the years Livingston ranks higher, that it is a better school district in THOSE years, but not in the years it ranks a few points lower? You are comparing apples to apples.
HERE is another thread where this poster is trying to mislead another poster by steering them toward Chatham and Madison, because Livingston is "too far of a drive" from Florham Park (even though it is right next door). I am starting to wonder if this poster is a sells real estate in Chatham and Madison.
As far as schools, Chatham HS has consistently ranked within the top ten in the state for the past 10+ years on the NJ monthly rankings of schools. Livingston HS has also ranked well, though not in the top ten, usually somewhere in the 20's. When looking at HESPA scores, Chatham comes in at #10, and Livingston at #20. //www.city-data.com/forum/new-j...-rankings.html The average SAT score for Chatham HS is 1756, Livingston is 1735. Interactive Map: High School SAT scores - NJ Spotlight My comment on Chatham having better schools is based on factual evidence.
As far as the previous post mentioned, what AnesthesiaMD now fails to mention is that the OP's work place was in the far western portion of Florham Park, and therefore closer to Madison and Chatham than much of Livingston. Given the traffic during rush getting from one side of Livingston to the other can not only be a PITA, but time consuming as well, I suggested that the OP consider looking at the other nearby towns as well. I did also suggest that if the realtor they were dealing with would only show them homes in Livingston, they should seek another realtor, one who works in other local communities, and does not limit the homes they show to only Livingston. I would make the same comment to anyone who's realtor was limiting them to only specific towns, no matter which town was in question.
Since I am being accused of being a liar and being deceitful here, I want to be absolutely clear, I am not a realtor, nor do I have any vested interest in either Madison or the Chathams. While I did grow up in Morris County, it was not in either of those towns. I have been a long time homeowner in another Morris County town. I have never owned property in Madison or the Chathams, nor have I worked for the municipalities or school districts.
In the interests of full disclosure, one should also note that AnesthesiaMD, although he fails to mention it this on this thread, has mentioned previously on this forum, that he is a graduate of Livingston HS, and has chosen to live and raise his family there.
As far as schools, Chatham HS has consistently ranked within the top ten in the state for the past 10+ years on the NJ monthly rankings of schools. Livingston HS has also ranked well, though not in the top ten, usually somewhere in the 20's. When looking at HESPA scores, Chatham comes in at #10, and Livingston at #20. //www.city-data.com/forum/new-j...-rankings.html The average SAT score for Chatham HS is 1756, Livingston is 1735. Interactive Map: High School SAT scores - NJ Spotlight My comment on Chatham having better schools is based on factual evidence.
As far as the previous post mentioned, what AnesthesiaMD now fails to mention is that the OP's work place was in the far western portion of Florham Park, and therefore closer to Madison and Chatham than much of Livingston. Given the traffic during rush getting from one side of Livingston to the other can not only be a PITA, but time consuming as well, I suggested that the OP consider looking at the other nearby towns as well. I did also suggest that if the realtor they were dealing with would only show them homes in Livingston, they should seek another realtor, one who works in other local communities, and does not limit the homes they show to only Livingston. I would make the same comment to anyone who's realtor was limiting them to only specific towns, no matter which town was in question.
Since I am being accused of being a liar and being deceitful here, I want to be absolutely clear, I am not a realtor, nor do I have any vested interest in either Madison or the Chathams. While I did grow up in Morris County, it was not in either of those towns. I have been a long time homeowner in another Morris County town. I have never owned property in Madison or the Chathams, nor have I worked for the municipalities or school districts.
In the interests of full disclosure, one should also note that AnesthesiaMD, although he fails to mention it this on this thread, has mentioned previously on this forum, that he is a graduate of Livingston HS, and has chosen to live and raise his family there.
KoalaNJ
What would lead you to believe I was trying to hide the fact that I grew up in Livingston? To the contrary, I am rather proud of the fact. Its an amazing town , and I am in great company.
But the difference between you and me is that I dont try to push Livingston on people. If you want to move here, great! If not, that's great too! When someone comes on this board and says "I am moving to Madison next month...", I tell them about all the great things I know about Madison. I don't tell them "You should really reconsider and move to Livingston." I don't know that poster from Adam. I would have to be an idiot to believe that any 1 town is the right fit for everybody.
I am not sure you understand how this works. You do realize that people are able to go back to the thread and read it for themselves, don't you? Or maybe you are just counting on people's laziness. No where that I can see does the poster say they are working on the west side of Florham Park. Certainly not prior to you chiming in about Livingston being a far drive. So there is one more attempt at misdirection to add to the list.
As far as census data, I was using Chatham Borough, not Township. I was using the City-Data website that anyone here can check. So if Livingson is more crowded than Chatham Township, and that makes Chatham township "better", and Livingston is less crowded than Madison or Chatham Borough, does that make Livingston better than them as well? I am just trying to understand your logic here.
I'll have to get back to you on the schools. I am on my way out the door.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 06-15-2013 at 03:34 PM..
There are two Chathams. Chatham Township is lower density than Livingston, Chatham Borough is higher, as is Madison. As AnesthesiaMD points out, Livingston is quite large (bigger than both Chathams together), and densities vary locally within the town. Chatham Borough and Madison have the advantage of being train towns, of course.
As far as schools, Chatham HS has consistently ranked within the top ten in the state for the past 10+ years on the NJ monthly rankings of schools. Livingston HS has also ranked well, though not in the top ten, usually somewhere in the 20's. When looking at HESPA scores, Chatham comes in at #10, and Livingston at #20. //www.city-data.com/forum/new-j...-rankings.html The average SAT score for Chatham HS is 1756, Livingston is 1735. Interactive Map: High School SAT scores - NJ Spotlight My comment on Chatham having better schools is based on factual evidence.
KoalaNJ
Schools. I think this is a silly argument because you are talking about such minor differences that can easily be accounted for by demographics and other variables that place the three towns within the margin of error of each other.
The website you mentioned that shows the SAT scores of Chatham and Livingston, also shows Madison as having the lowest SAT score of the three towns at 1711 (Another strange coincidence how you left that out of your post.) It also has Livingston as the highest of the three when it comes to passing the HSPA. "Livingston 94.02%", "Madison 86.7%", "Chatham 92.37%". And this is all from YOUR source.
This years Newsweek puts Livingston at 142 in the nation while it places Chatham at 173 and Madison at 296.
Again, I feel silly even arguing this as the differences between the education you get at any of these three great towns is negligible. We could post lists and stats back and forth all day and it will mean very little. Which is why, for you to say someone should pick Madison or Chatham because they have "better schools" is a bit comical.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 06-15-2013 at 11:10 PM..
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