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Old 10-29-2011, 08:21 AM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,537,521 times
Reputation: 24590

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
simply false. but then again...who cares about facts in these discussions?
there is no way that my statement is false. most innovation absolutely does come from the private sector. it isnt even anywhere near close.

even without all the developments that have come from the private sector for the benefit of the public sector (military, space, etc.).

but you mentioned something about facts, so where are your facts? im assuming that means you must have a factual list of innovations from the private vs public sector. of course not, you think your opinions/beliefs are facts.

just do some google searching with regard to public vs private innovation. its ridiculous to compare the two.

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/0...rlds-the-publi

Last edited by CaptainNJ; 10-29-2011 at 08:44 AM..
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Old 10-29-2011, 11:30 AM
 
11,337 posts, read 10,992,005 times
Reputation: 14993
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
blah blah blah blah blah....ignoring facts. no big deal. wouldn't expect anything else from you.

governments around the world are funding embryonic stem cell research, and our country is falling behind. if not for the funding that has come from california's state government, we'd have essentially no progress in that field at all.

you can claim all you want that the private sector would be faster, but the bottom line is, much of what we have today in scientific innovation and medical innovation is from government activity BECAUSE private wouldn't do it due to the costs. so we could try your way, we'd be competing with ethiopia and honduras on an economic scale. good luck
My way does not require using the police power of the state to confiscate private wealth to lavish on politically adept "scientists" who are good at paying off politicians to get free grant money. And to lavish on "scientists" who create political crises like global warming to up the ante on those grants and keep them self-perpetuating and transmogrifying into bigger and worse boondoggles.

Your way does.

Let's try mine.
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Old 10-29-2011, 12:29 PM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,537,521 times
Reputation: 24590
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
but the bottom line is, much of what we have today in scientific innovation and medical innovation is from government activity BECAUSE private wouldn't do it due to the costs.
this is not true. most innovation is from private investment. the government invests a good amount, but its much less efficient as it doles out money politically. its interesting how you conjure up thoughts in your head that make sense to you and then present them as fact. you dont even try to present any support for your claims but feel totally comfortable pretending you are the one presenting "facts."
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:05 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,353,711 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
there is no way that my statement is false. most innovation absolutely does come from the private sector. it isnt even anywhere near close.

even without all the developments that have come from the private sector for the benefit of the public sector (military, space, etc.).

but you mentioned something about facts, so where are your facts? im assuming that means you must have a factual list of innovations from the private vs public sector. of course not, you think your opinions/beliefs are facts.

just do some google searching with regard to public vs private innovation. its ridiculous to compare the two.

The American Spectator : Two Different Worlds: The Public and Private Sectors
feel free to evidence your statement, as you didn't either. bottom line is the major innovations have come from government $. DARPA, NASA, Military, NIH, etc.

your article you linked? those car safety features? government requirements. more fuel efficient? government required. how did they get more fuel efficient? by using materials NASA researched that are lighter and stronger, improved insulation and aerodynamics, etc.

you're right, it is ridiculous to compare the two, because private dollars just aren't there for the real innovations that need to be made to come out with brand new technology without the support of the government and the information that came from government research already performed.

GPS? government
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Old 10-31-2011, 07:06 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,353,711 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
My way does not require using the police power of the state to confiscate private wealth to lavish on politically adept "scientists" who are good at paying off politicians to get free grant money. And to lavish on "scientists" who create political crises like global warming to up the ante on those grants and keep them self-perpetuating and transmogrifying into bigger and worse boondoggles.

Your way does.

Let's try mine.
i believe the privately funded Koch brothers study on climate change just confirmed that it does exist and it is impacted by human activity.

looks like your way was tried and agrees with my way. thanks!
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:47 AM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,537,521 times
Reputation: 24590
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
feel free to evidence your statement, as you didn't either. bottom line is the major innovations have come from government $. DARPA, NASA, Military, NIH, etc.

your article you linked? those car safety features? government requirements. more fuel efficient? government required. how did they get more fuel efficient? by using materials NASA researched that are lighter and stronger, improved insulation and aerodynamics, etc.

you're right, it is ridiculous to compare the two, because private dollars just aren't there for the real innovations that need to be made to come out with brand new technology without the support of the government and the information that came from government research already performed.

GPS? government
its funny, i read an article which would make you very happy. it said that in the past 50 years, government money has become a much larger % of total research money than it was before. they came to the conclusion that government money is needed for innovation. but my conclusion would be the opposite. that government money wasnt needed before, and still isnt needed. but when you have a ton of money in government's hands and lobbyists and other stakeholders screaming for money, all the sudden its critical that government money be spent on research. i would also say that even though government money is spent on research, it is the least efficient source and produces the least actual innovations. when you look at all the innovations out there, even where government is involved but also in place where it isnt, you will find that actual medical advances and consumer electronics progress isnt made by the government or with government money being the driving force. but everyone is going to fight for the government money if its available. free money stolen from the 53%.

btw, im not always interested in researching my opinions to cite sources. you clearly arent either. the difference is that im willing to just put them out as my opinions that i believe to be based on fact, while you constantly claim to be posting facts. i think if you want to say "im posting facts" or "my point is a fact and yours is baseless" then you should post supporting evidence. you never do that but want to be considered to be the one posting facts, which you pretty much never do.
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:58 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,353,711 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
its funny, i read an article which would make you very happy. it said that in the past 50 years, government money has become a much larger % of total research money than it was before. they came to the conclusion that government money is needed for innovation. but my conclusion would be the opposite. that government money wasnt needed before, and still isnt needed. but when you have a ton of money in government's hands and lobbyists and other stakeholders screaming for money, all the sudden its critical that government money be spent on research. i would also say that even though government money is spent on research, it is the least efficient source and produces the least actual innovations. when you look at all the innovations out there, even where government is involved but also in place where it isnt, you will find that actual medical advances and consumer electronics progress isnt made by the government or with government money being the driving force. but everyone is going to fight for the government money if its available. free money stolen from the 53%.

btw, im not always interested in researching my opinions to cite sources. you clearly arent either. the difference is that im willing to just put them out as my opinions that i believe to be based on fact, while you constantly claim to be posting facts. i think if you want to say "im posting facts" or "my point is a fact and yours is baseless" then you should post supporting evidence. you never do that but want to be considered to be the one posting facts, which you pretty much never do.
where can you point to where innovations were made without the goverbment? what medical advances and consumer electronics progress? i've backed my claim that your opinion is false by giving you examples. you offer no examples, just your opinion. what would the iphone be without utilizing GPS, materials developed by NASA, and a communications infrastructure that is in place because of government investment?
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:13 AM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,537,521 times
Reputation: 24590
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
i've backed my claim that your opinion is false by giving you examples. ?
you have not. giving a few examples of where government stole money from the 53% to fuel research doesnt prove that more innovation comes from government funded research. also, assuming things like without government we couldnt develop lighter and more aerodynic cars, is a false assumption. so you havent presented facts that support your conclusion.

also, i dont really want to put together all the examples of private sector innovation. to me, when you see all the products we buy regularly and how they have been improved over time, its obvious that consumers drive most innovation in america. but if you dont believe that, im not willing to put together a list of examples and support that with how they were developed. you arent willing to do that either, you just want to mention a couple of things and leave it there and then expect people to believe you have presented facts and supported your conclusion.

Last edited by CaptainNJ; 10-31-2011 at 09:22 AM..
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:28 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 21,353,711 times
Reputation: 3730
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
you have not. giving a few examples of where government stole money from the 53% to fuel research doesnt prove that more innovation comes from government funded research. also, assuming things like without government we couldnt develop lighter and more aerodynic cars, is a false assumption. so you havent presented facts that support your conclusion.

also, i dont really want to put together all the examples of private sector innovation. to me, when you see all the products we buy regularly and how they have been improved over time, its obvious that consumers drive most innovation in america. but if you dont believe that, im not willing to put together a list of examples and support that with how they were developed. you arent willing to do that either, you just want to mention a couple of things and leave it there and then expect people to believe you have presented facts and supported your conclusion.
whatever you say sir. the only point you've made that might be true is that it's false to assume it wouldn't have been done without government involvement. you're right, but there's plenty of data out there to show that private companies simply wouldn't take on the risk of the initial development of many advancements because of the cost. without government demand for certain things, and without the products government research has developed, much of what we have today simply wouldn't be there. then, once it's developed, the private sector does a great job improving technologies and coming out with multiple uses for them, but the initial costly stage has been taken on by the government in pretty much all of our major technological and medical advancements. you can ignore that if you'd like, but it's still true.
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:11 PM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,537,521 times
Reputation: 24590
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
you're right, but there's plenty of data out there to show that private companies simply wouldn't take on the risk of the initial development of many advancements because of the cost.
only in research that is useless because it cant yield a profit. government funding of medical and scientific research is usually just funding research for the sake of spending money on research. i guess they think its about gathering knowledge that can be used later on other applications. when it comes to pharmaceuticals used to treat patients, diagnostic equipment technologies, therapies, etc. this is all private money that is used to create useful things because they can yield profit. government money is mostly wasted.
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