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Old 03-17-2012, 11:02 AM
 
10,219 posts, read 19,099,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
That's funny. When a disabled person wants access to the same things you already have access to, that's somehow considered "special privileges". Why the double standard?
Like I said, play the hand you're dealt. Don't go taking things away from me to even things out. You want a guaranteed spot close to the door? Yeah, me too, and I'd also like to win the lottery.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Elsewhere
87,997 posts, read 83,827,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopbubbles View Post
They why do they need the handicap parking so they don't have to walk too far to get into the store when they can wall everywhere else in the supermarket without a problem? If a person call wall all around inside the store then they should be able to walk a few spaces down in the freaking parking lot. That is what I am talking about. If I had trouble walking from my car to the front door then how can I justify not haveing any problem walking in the the store. That is what makes it obvious not whether or not I can see their prosthetics or missing body part inside or out. It's the fact that they can and do walk the distance after they get the handicap parking without need any extra help.

I'm not saying all handicap people don't need that space for them I'm saying not all do need it and they know they don't but society just automatically assumes they all do. Anyone can have a handicap and manage just fine but all of a sudden when they don't feel like looking around for parking they have a problem with their handicap. Oh but when roaming around in the store tha handicap is all of a sudden manageable. It's not right because they take spaces from the people who really do need those spaces and it's not right that they get it for free when it's on street parking in front of their home. When I say street parking I don't mean the street parking in front of a chain s of stores that is used for patrons looking to shop I mean the street parking they have for their own personal use in front of their homes.

It looks like the best way to stop the scamers is to start making them all pay for that private parking. Not when it comes to the store handicap parking spots but for the private spots designated just for them yes they should have to pay. Too many people all of a sudden can walk when they get in the store they don't need any motorized anything for help so I don't buy into it when I see that.
There ARE some people who do seem to be able to walk around in the store just fine, but I think that's the exception rather than the rule. My father, for example, with the prosthetic legs, could walk into the store, but he could only walk for short distances at one time and then have to stop and stand or sit if possible. Someone like you who is not familiar with a disabled person might not have noticed this. Inside the store, he could walk from a rack of clothing to a register and then stand there for a few minutes and recover sufficiently to walk another short distance, but this doesn't mean he could walk clear across the parking lot at the Garden State Plaza. When I got married, he walked me down the aisle by hanging on to the church pews with his other hand as he went along.

Now my mother, who is 83 and does not have a handicapped card but I think should get one, cannot walk long distances either. She has arthritis in her hip and in a foot that she broke long ago. She can walk into a supermarket and then get through her shopping only because she has a shopping cart to lean on and use as one would a walker. If she had a handicapped card and then went into the supermarket, would you say "look at that woman walking around the store just fine?"

I'm not saying some people don't cheat. I'm just saying you should ask yourself if it's possible you don't know the whole story and don't see what you don't see.

I don't get what the big deal is anyway. If you're healthy and can walk, who gives a rat's ass if you have to walk another 50 feet or so to get to a store?
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Lakewood, NJ
1,171 posts, read 2,672,728 times
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You are assuming that these people choose to go grocery shopping and to other stores. Most people with serious afflictions are on disability and not all have friends or family who are willing to do their daily chores for them. What are they supposed to do? My friend who lost most of her left lung could walk that distance if she had to very slowly but parking closer made her life a bit easier and she would be more able to complete her shopping without having to leave before she was done because she was not feeling well. This was a while ago and now they have those small oxygen bags that are light and easy to carry but back then it was the heavy tank that she felt made it worse by lugging it around and expending more energy. Many people also do not want to be a burden on their friends and family and don't ask for/want help. I see this with the elderly a lot. Too much pride.

A perfect example is when I was on clinical rotations in vet school and I BADLY sprained my ankle. I was granted a temporary handicapped permit for 4 weeks at school. I was on my feet most of the day/night and in excruciating pain by the end of the day. I tried to stay off it as much as possible and elevate it when I could which wasn't often. We went in around 6:30 am and sometimes didn't get out until 9- 10 pm. Could I have walked 1/4 mile to a spot farther away? Yes. But the thought of that would have made me cry. I still have problems with that ankle because I wasn't able to allow it to heal properly without taking a leave at school (which was not an option) but I had to do what I had to do. In the morning after I was off it for a while I could walk fine after a week or two and I'm sure people who didn't know my situation thought I was abusing the system. It wasn't until the end of the day that it was very noticeable. That handicapped permit made my life a little bit easier at that time. I think that's what those permits are really for. To make someone's life who has some disability a little bit easier and I'm OK with that.

Now, are there people that abuse this? Of course. There always will be but I think what we are trying to say is the people who you think are abusing it may not be. Their disability may not be visible. There are other reasons for a permit other than mechanical ones.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:46 AM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,413,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopbubbles View Post
They why do they need the handicap parking so they don't have to walk too far to get into the store when they can wall everywhere else in the supermarket without a problem? If a person call wall all around inside the store then they should be able to walk a few spaces down in the freaking parking lot. That is what I am talking about. If I had trouble walking from my car to the front door then how can I justify not haveing any problem walking in the the store. That is what makes it obvious not whether or not I can see their prosthetics or missing body part inside or out. It's the fact that they can and do walk the distance after they get the handicap parking without need any extra help.

I'm not saying all handicap people don't need that space for them I'm saying not all do need it and they know they don't but society just automatically assumes they all do. Anyone can have a handicap and manage just fine but all of a sudden when they don't feel like looking around for parking they have a problem with their handicap. Oh but when roaming around in the store tha handicap is all of a sudden manageable. It's not right because they take spaces from the people who really do need those spaces and it's not right that they get it for free when it's on street parking in front of their home. When I say street parking I don't mean the street parking in front of a chain s of stores that is used for patrons looking to shop I mean the street parking they have for their own personal use in front of their homes. I could see an exception for Senior Citizens because most of them aren't scamming the system but still they do need to pay just with a discount. I am just trying to think of ways to be fair to everyone.

It looks like the best way to stop the scamers is to start making them all pay for that private parking. Not when it comes to the store handicap parking spots but for the private spots designated just for them yes they should have to pay. Too many people all of a sudden can walk when they get in the store they don't need any motorized anything for help so I don't buy into it when I see that.
Two reasons. First of all, in the store you can lean on the shopping cart, and carry your belongings in the shopping cart. When you go to the car, you have to carry grocery bags, which makes each step considerably more difficult and painful for people with neuromuscular or arthritic conditions. For people with cardiac or respiratory problems, carrying bags is a lot more taxing on the cardiopulmonary system than pushing a cart.

Secondly, who said it's easy for them to walk through the store? Again, you're assuming that. Shopping is one of the most fatiguing things people who have chronic pain and other various medical conditions have to do. I hate shopping. I can walk around in the store and so on, but it's painful and I do get tired. If I can shorten the experience in any way, all the better. Walking on my own, at my own pace in an area that I choose, with the option to take a break when necessary, is completely different from walking with grocery bags in my hand and having to navigate an area that may have unpredictable slopes, curbs, and other obstacles, with no opportunity to take a break.

You don't know who needs and who doesn't need the handicap space. Leave that up to doctors and the DMV to decide. You cannot make an accurate and informed decision just based on looking at someone. Doctors have medical tests, an M.D. degree, and a much deeper more nuanced understanding of disability, as a basis to make a much more informed decision.

You might see someone using a blind cane and reading fine print. But what you might not realize is that they are reading that fine print through a pinhole of vision, because their field of vision only subtends an angle of two degrees. Would you assume that person doesn't need the blind cane? Probably. But an eye doctor, who is qualified and informed to make the decision, would know that when it comes to navigating space and walking around, that person has to function as a blind person, because there is a huge percentage of visual information they are missing. The eye doctor also has a nuanced and deep understanding of how various visual impairments interfere with balance, and may understand that in order to maintain balance, that visually impaired person needs to gather tactile information from their surroundings, through a blind cane. As a casual bystander judging that person, would you be aware of that? Probably not.

This is not your place. This is not my place either. I do not go around judging how severe I think people's disabilities are. Just live your life and let medical professionals, who are infinitely more qualified than you, do their job.

Last edited by nimchimpsky; 03-17-2012 at 11:54 AM..
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:17 PM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,413,564 times
Reputation: 12590
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Like I said, play the hand you're dealt. Don't go taking things away from me to even things out. You want a guaranteed spot close to the door? Yeah, me too, and I'd also like to win the lottery.
Don’t you understand that a disabled person who gets the proper accommodations is brought up to the same level as you—in terms of accessibility? If I get something transferred into braille, I’m getting access to the same material you can already use your eyes to read. If a deaf person gets a sign language interpreter, she or he is getting access to the same material you can already hear with your ears. If a ramp is installed, a wheelchair user is getting access to the same buildings that you can already enter, by going up or down some stairs. It’s not about extra privileges. It’s about getting access to the same thing you, as an able-bodied person, already have access to. Nothing to do with the luck of winning the lottery. It’s about having the right to live life.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:23 PM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,413,564 times
Reputation: 12590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopbubbles View Post
My Brother has COPD and he doesn't have the handicap license plates, placard or his own street sign. Yes there are people who game the system but they still should have to pay a monthly fee for having it in front of their homes because it's only for them and no other handicap person. I don't like they don't want to pay to have that when everyone else cannot get a designatd off the street parking space reserved just for them. It's not right. Plus everyone else who has their own driveway has to pay extra in their taxes for having that private reserved parking space.

Street parking should be for everyone. I hate that so many people who, even when they have a disease/condition, don't need it get to have that. Not every one with heart disease can't walk up to their home. I find it impossible to believe these people can't walk to their home a block or half a block away yet they have no problem walking around in the supermarket at their own pace with out any need for anything motorized or even a wheelchair. what is the problem that hey have when it comes to parking that they can't be too far away from the door but all of a sudden when in a supermarket or anywhere else they are fine. It makes no sense does their disease all of a sudden disappear? did they make a sudden recovery? what? COPD when parking but get in the house or anywhere else all of a sudden they can walk the distance? When I see them in a wheelchair or in the motorized scooter/gocart I know they really, seriously can't walk the distance.

I have a friend who needs handicap parking for real and can't get when visiting me because all the handicap parking sighs are designated only for the apt the sigh is installed for. It should be a sighn for all handicapped persons They really should have to pay to have that on a monthly basis even if it's ony $30.00 a month.
If your brother has COPD and does not have the handicap license plates, it’s for one of two reasons:

1) He is not eligible because his condition is not severe enough, or
2) He hasn’t taken the time to apply.

In either case, you can’t blame society for that. I haven’t bothered to get a handicap placard even though I’m eligible, because I rarely get in a car (and obviously I always get in as the passenger if I do). But do I go around with a chip on my shoulder because I don’t have my placard even though I’m eligible? No.

I do understand your frustration with people who scam the system. I don’t like it either, because scammers make it harder for people with real disabilities to get the services they need. But those who scam the system are a much smaller percentage than people assume. Most people that appear to be “scammers” are truly disabled, but bystanders erroneously assume that their condition is less severe, nonexistent, or for whatever reason, doesn’t warrant a placard.

That decision is up to medical professionals and the DMV to determine. They can make a more informed decision based on medical tests and a deeper understanding of various disabilities.

If you want to be able to make that decision, then become a medical professional. Until then, leave it to the pros.
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Epping,NH
2,105 posts, read 6,638,056 times
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Quote:
When I had surgery, I had to walk on crutches past acres of handicapped spots
Or you could have simply applied for a Temporary Handicap permit.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:03 PM
 
1,595 posts, read 2,754,424 times
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Thank you everyone I think I'm beginning to understand. I had forgotten I told the guy who takes the shopping carts that he should leave some inbetween the handicap spaces for the Sr. Citizens so they could have something to lean on. That was only because my own Mother needs to lean on one but when she goes into the store she uses the motorized scooter. I should use one too becuase my back is so badly hurt and the pain is so bad at times and there are times I swear the arthritis is going to kill me. I have trouble going up the stairs and have literally pull on a railing to get up. I am fortunate enough to have someone help me sometimes with groceries to bring in my apt. but damn if it isn't going to kill yet to help Mom with her groceries. I fight the sciataca and pain in my feet live on ibuprofen and pray it works when I need it the most. Then I see how people just zip past me in the store when I want to die from the pain while trying to hide it from my Mother and when I get home I have to park up the street and walk with what groceries I can carry so I don't have to ask for too much help up an incline because I live on a hill. To top it off my fingers where they bend hurt and my shoulder problems are flairing up along with my damn bursitis in my elbow. *sigh* So I think I am not thinking about how not everyone shows their own pain like I do. I don't even know what kind of specialist to go to for arthritis, chronic pain or that condition called fibromyalagia. I can see I am going to have to retire early like it or not. I can't sit too long and can't stand too long and worst of all jumping up and down every few seconds to every few minutes make it worse. If I'm lucky I'll be dead soon that way I won't be in anymore pain but my Mother would probably miss me and my furry babies would never survive without me and that, believe it or not, keeps me going

Ok sorry rant over. I always thought a cane was all they needed to walk the distance and figured well they have the cane and use the cart when bringing the groceries to the car but I had not considered they have to bring groceries in the house, duh I should have considered that. Not everyone has a husband or someone to bring them in for them. The way they, especially sr. citizens, hold on to the carts is a give away that they do need help and the assistance. But I understand with Sr. Citizens I just don't with young people and am beginning to now. I see I have a lot to learn starting with asking, which I'm glad I did, is this right, should this be or they do? I still have to wonder though about the private handicap parking where the handicap don't share the space. See my Mother can't use any of the handicap spaces by me because they are only for the house/apt. #that is on the sign and designated to that house/apt resident only.

I got to questioning this because of an article I found online about a City of Passaic where I have relatives living saying they will start charging the handicap $50 to use the space they have designated just for them.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:26 PM
 
10,219 posts, read 19,099,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
Don’t you understand that a disabled person who gets the proper accommodations is brought up to the same level as you—in terms of accessibility?
Sure, and if I'm playing poker and I hold a straight flush, giving the guy with nothing a few extra cards might bring him up to my level too, but that isn't playing the hand you're dealt.

There are all sorts of areas one person might be better off than another in, and for whatever reason some of them get accommodation and some of them don't. Personally I'm tired of being told "tough luck" for the areas I'm worse off in, then watching as others with other disadvantages get accommodation at my expense. And when it's basically the same disadvantage and others still get accommodated at my expense, I get really angry about it. Like I said, when I had my hip operated on, I got to drag myself on crutches past all those handicapped spots. Same for now when I have arthritis. Once when I was sitting down on the PATH, as she was getting off, some pregnant lady told me off (after glaring at me the whole ride) for not offering my seat. Yeah... forget you, first come first seated unless you find a cop.

Still, arthritis isn't my real handicap. That's just pain. I can deal with pain. My real handicap is not having the ability to work the system. And there's no accommodation for that.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:42 PM
 
10,449 posts, read 12,413,564 times
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Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Sure, and if I'm playing poker and I hold a straight flush, giving the guy with nothing a few extra cards might bring him up to my level too, but that isn't playing the hand you're dealt.

There are all sorts of areas one person might be better off than another in, and for whatever reason some of them get accommodation and some of them don't. Personally I'm tired of being told "tough luck" for the areas I'm worse off in, then watching as others with other disadvantages get accommodation at my expense. And when it's basically the same disadvantage and others still get accommodated at my expense, I get really angry about it. Like I said, when I had my hip operated on, I got to drag myself on crutches past all those handicapped spots. Same for now when I have arthritis. Once when I was sitting down on the PATH, as she was getting off, some pregnant lady told me off (after glaring at me the whole ride) for not offering my seat. Yeah... forget you, first come first seated unless you find a cop.

Still, arthritis isn't my real handicap. That's just pain. I can deal with pain. My real handicap is not having the ability to work the system. And there's no accommodation for that.
Having a disability is like having fewer cards dealt to you to begin with. Accommodations are like getting the cards that then bring you up to having the same number in your hand as everyone else.

As someone with arthritis, I am surprised you do not understand this.

If people have told you "tough luck", then you need to stand up for your rights. I have heard that many times too, but I refuse to accept it and stand up for the rights I have. I have been unable to apply to two colleges because they didn't want to give me braille. The college I am at now almost denied my application on the basis of my blindness. Am I just going to sit back and say "oh well" and then get mad at other disabled people who are standing up for their rights? No, I'm going to fight for my rights, and so should you.

People do not offer me a seat or tell me where there is a seat available on the metro all the time. People shove me, violate my personal space, have even pushed me as they were entering the train to the point that I fell over. The world is full of jerks--no doubt about it. If I fall over, it's their fault. In fact, I'll tell you a little trick. If you look like you are about to fall over, people will be much more willing to give you a seat. I have zero sense of balance (blindness interferes with balance, particularly on moving trains). I don't have to act much, but if I show that I am probably going to fall if forced to stand, people will take one look at me and give up their seat. Try it sometime. Just appear as though you are going to fall over, make some eye contact (since you can do that, lol) and see what happens.

I got turned down for job applications hundreds of times, usually when the interviewer noticed I'm blind. "Oh, we found someone" or "oh, you're not the ideal candidate", blah blah blah. Like I didn't know it's about my blindness. But I keep trying, and guess what--just today I got a new job.

If you are bitter about having been turned down for opportunities, that is your problem. You need to do something about it. If people are taking accommodations at your expense--well guess what--they shouldn't be, because you deserve accommodations of your own. If you have arthritis, you are probably eligible for a placard. Go and apply for one.

Don't project it on other people who are figuring out ways to be independent and successful. Instead, figure out how you can be independent and successful. Getting mad at other people for securing the accommodations they deserve is not going to get you the accommodations you deserve. Instead, work on getting what you need so that you won't have to be bitter at them anymore.

Working the system is something you learn. I had to learn how to do that. You have to have a loud voice. Now I am the kind of person naturally that avoids conflict at all costs. I really don't like to ruffle feathers. I am afraid to ask for what I need. But you have to exercise that part of yourself and trust yourself to be your own best self-advocate, or you'll never be able to get the right accommodations. It's not easy, especially if that goes against every grain of who you are, but you just have to bit the bullet and do it if you ever want to get the proper accommodations.
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