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So many points to be addressed in this post. I don't even know where to start.
The self soothing, delusional, pie in the sky nature of this post has me scatter brained. It's infuriating & has my mind racing at 1000 MPH (please bear with me).
The intentional, purposeful ignorance & lack of self awareness truly frightens me & at the same time tells me quite a bit about the South Jersey mind frame.
How long have you lived in South Jersey? How you long have you studied South Jersey? Amazing that you have such overarching insight into the minds of people from South Jersey.
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South Jersey loves to be the powerless detractor. They don't run this state, they know it, they resent that fact & would rather throw their cultural loyalties behind a city that is not that fond of them in a classic case of 'cut your nose off to spite your face'.
Well, politically we have a decent amount of clout. Steve Sweeney is from Gloucester County afterall and Norcross is THE power broker for the Democratic party in the state. Heck, the whole Rutgers Camden merge with Rowan was their idea. No, South Jersey doesn't have the same pull and has traditionally been the states orphan, but we don't have a complex over it.
Also, where do people in North Jersey identify culturally? Funny, because I thought it was NYC. We have a whole thread on this, the state has no "cultural center" of its own. Depending on where you live you either identify with NYC or Philly. I live closer to Philly then I do to Trenton or any major NJ city. Where do you think I should "culturally identify"?
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THE DEVILS ARE NEW JERSEY. If they play in Camden, Newark, Jersey City, Trenton, ect. New effing Jersey Devils. Emphasis on New effing Jersey.
The Devils are a hockey team that happens to play in NJ. Just like the Giants are a football team that happens to play in NJ, but calls themselves NY. FWIW, before they built the Wells Fargo Center there was SERIOUS discussion about moving the Flyers to an arena in Cherry Hill.
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Notice how soug throws North Jersey under the bus in an attempt to separate from the negativity directed New Jersey's way. As if the media does not lump us in all together (South Jersey included).
South Jersey has played their way into the perfect victim role. They aren't responsible for all of NJ's negativity, they aren't responsible to take on the task of representing & supporting a small market team squeezed between two large cities................. They aren't responsible for any of it on a cultural level. What's a more self righteous, lazy position than that? It's perfect. You don't have to do anything except complain about North Jersey.
I don't know how the NYC media treats North Jersey, but the Philly stations tend to provide pretty equal and fair coverage to South Jersey and its issues and breaking news. Heck, they provide so much coverage, we get to suffer through stories about firemen rescuing kittens in Medford.
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Do you understand what I'm saying? It's a subservient mind frame. Ride that Philly wave & feel good about yourself. Even though your from Jersey & they don't really like you very much.
Camden will never, ever, ever, ever become a better place with that type of mind frame. Do you think anyone, with any sort of clout in Philly wants to see Camden become a better place? Honestly...............?
South Jersey needs to fight, scrap, claw for their piece of the pie in that region. Complaining about North Jersey does not get you anywhere. South Jersey needs to be a worthy opponent to Philly. For your own good.
Better to be subservient then have some kind of odd inferiority complex that you apparently have. I don't know anyone in South Jersey that feels subservient to or has any kind of issue with or from Philly. Outside of PA drivers not knowing what a jughandle is, we're all pretty cool with each other. As for employment and economy, it may interest you to know that South Jersey's three main counties: Burlington, Camden and Gloucester do pretty well on their own with a per capita GDP higher then Philly.
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I guarantee; If South Jersey ever starts becoming truly ambitious & reaching for what is theirs............. South Jersey & Philly stop being BFF's & all warm & fuzzy on the inside. Philly does not try to assassinate you in the media because they don't need to. Because of dudes like you. Why would they? You're not a threat.
Have Camden steal a major corporation from Philly. Tax abatements, incentives, ect. That would be great. An improvement. I bet the Philly papers start talking about South Jersey different. They will start to get nasty, disparaging. Understand?
Do you understand, that this is all one big country right? The United States of America. This is not a death race or competition. We don't need to "steal" anything and try to "prove ourselves" to Philly or anyone else. You're saying people in South Jersey are delusional because their content? You're the one whose delusional if you think that we all need to be clawing at each others throats over everything. I'm sorry that NYC flushes its toilet and it winds up in your backyard, but get over it.
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Originally Posted by Jersey08057
This is why they laugh at us. We're like an abused spouse making every excuse why we won't leave. Do you think if The DEVILS played in camden philly would give them equal media coverage?
Well considering that Comcast owns the Flyers probably not. There is nothing to draw from for experience in that regard. Does the NYC media give equal coverage to the Jets and Giants? Do they give equal coverage to the Yankees and Mets? Perhaps the reason they don't give the Devils much coverage over the Rangers is that:
1. Hockey is one of the smallest fan bases in pro sports.
2. The Devils have one of the smallest fan bases in hockey.
If you are going to give airtime to sports, you'll pick the one some people may actually give a crap about.
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Originally Posted by EBWick
People who live above Rt. 195 think Philly is a useless cesspool and second-rate city that isn't even as cool as Brooklyn, nevermind the entire city of NY.
And Philly's #1 in something:
PHILADELPHIA (CBS) – Philadelphia is closing out another year with homicides up again. On a per-capita measurement, the city has the highest murder rate among big U.S. cities.
The homicide tally was 324 heading into the last two days of the year, above last year’s 306, and 302 the year before.
Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey says the five-year high water mark was 2007, “It’s one thing to say in ’07 we had 392. But, for the 324 we’ve had this year, it doesn’t bring any comfort to the family. It certainly doesn’t bring any comfort to me.”
Among the ten largest cities, Philadelphia’s murder rate was 20.7 per 100,000. The next closest is Chicago, at 15.7, according to Commissioner Ramsey, who was Chicago’s top cop, before he came here from Washington DC.
Seriously, why all the hate? What are we talking about and comparing here? The Devils play in Newark and in terms of "second rate cesspools" I think Newark is ahead of Philly on that list. NYC is a great city, one of the greatest in the world, but we have posters here screaming that NJ needs its own identity and that the folks in South Jersey are just the battered spouses of Philly. Then you trump out how much better NYC is. It's like one battered wife telling another how much better her husband is. You guys really need to get over it, especially considering that the Flyers and Rangers fans in this thread have been actually trying to talk about HOCKEY.
Notice how none of you respond to the discussion points on the Devils seemingly imminent bankruptcy or being taken over by the NHL. Notice how none of you want to discuss the odd move of drafting this year for the Devils. Notice how none of you want to discuss the status of Parise and what will happen to the team if he leaves. No, you'd much rather bash Philly and South Jersey.
So many points to be addressed in this post. I don't even know where to start.
The self soothing, delusional, pie in the sky nature of this post has me scatter brained. It's infuriating & has my mind racing at 1000 MPH (please bear with me).
The intentional, purposeful ignorance & lack of self awareness truly frightens me & at the same time tells me quite a bit about the South Jersey mind frame.
South Jersey loves to be the powerless detractor. They don't run this state, they know it, they resent that fact & would rather throw their cultural loyalties behind a city that is not that fond of them in a classic case of 'cut your nose off to spite your face'. THE DEVILS ARE NEW JERSEY. If they play in Camden, Newark, Jersey City, Trenton, ect. New effing Jersey Devils. Emphasis on New effing Jersey.
Notice how soug throws North Jersey under the bus in an attempt to separate from the negativity directed New Jersey's way. As if the media does not lump us in all together (South Jersey included).
South Jersey has played their way into the perfect victim role. They aren't responsible for all of NJ's negativity, they aren't responsible to take on the task of representing & supporting a small market team squeezed between two large cities................. They aren't responsible for any of it on a cultural level. What's a more self righteous, lazy position than that? It's perfect. You don't have to do anything except complain about North Jersey.
Do you understand what I'm saying? It's a subservient mind frame. Ride that Philly wave & feel good about yourself. Even though your from Jersey & they don't really like you very much.
Camden will never, ever, ever, ever become a better place with that type of mind frame. Do you think anyone, with any sort of clout in Philly wants to see Camden become a better place? Honestly...............?
South Jersey needs to fight, scrap, claw for their piece of the pie in that region. Complaining about North Jersey does not get you anywhere. South Jersey needs to be a worthy opponent to Philly. For your own good.
I guarantee; If South Jersey ever starts becoming truly ambitious & reaching for what is theirs............. South Jersey & Philly stop being BFF's & all warm & fuzzy on the inside. Philly does not try to assassinate you in the media because they don't need to. Because of dudes like you. Why would they? You're not a threat.
Have Camden steal a major corporation from Philly. Tax abatements, incentives, ect. That would be great. An improvement. I bet the Philly papers start talking about South Jersey different. They will start to get nasty, disparaging. Understand?
You make some good points here. Like I said, I can see where you are coming from, although I don't have your blinding fury and passion and never will. Here's the thing though. You can't emphasize "New effing Jersey" but then call SJ spineless and singularly blame it for not taking its own. The state govt does not do nearly enough to incentivize SJ and help it take business from Philly. The emphasis is always on the northern parts of the state. You want SJ to steal from Philly? Help us then (Not that we really feel the need to, we do pretty well for ourselves).
This is starting to change, however. Your often-stated argument that SJ has no influence in the state government is old and outdated. The Senate President is from Gloucester County. The SJ Democratic block is extremely powerful in the Legislature. This whole higher education reform blew up because of the actions of SJ politicians. Whether this is good or bad is irrelevant to my argument, the point is they have a lot of influence these days.
Third, I know the NYC media lumps us together, sorry if my wording came off confusing. It's hard for me to understand the abuse NJ gets because I never experience it on the ground-level, but it hurts just the same. In fact, it probably hurts more, because I don't experience the NY/NJ dynamic constantly so I don't get why there is so much hatred.
Finally, you screaming "the Devils are NJ" just doesn't mean much to me. You calling our attitude "self-righteous" means nothing to me. In my previous post, I already stated that the Philly teams do much more for SJ than the Devils do for us. You want us to support your small-market team? Then have it support us back. At least give it to us on tv. Anyway, as I said, teams play for their city (of course there are some exceptions but it's a general rule). NJ isn't a city, it's a state. I'm proud of my state, but the Devils don't represent my state. Maybe in the NYC media they do, but not in the Philly media. The Philly media understands the nuances of NJ much better than the NYC media does. If there was a "New Jersey" team in Camden, would the dynamic change? Of course it would. But that's a hypothetical discussion, not reality. When that day comes, I will reevaluate my opinions.
People who live above Rt. 195 think Philly is a useless cesspool and second-rate city that isn't even as cool as Brooklyn, nevermind the entire city of NY.
And Philly's #1 in something:
PHILADELPHIA (CBS) – Philadelphia is closing out another year with homicides up again. On a per-capita measurement, the city has the highest murder rate among big U.S. cities.
The homicide tally was 324 heading into the last two days of the year, above last year’s 306, and 302 the year before.
Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey says the five-year high water mark was 2007, “It’s one thing to say in ’07 we had 392. But, for the 324 we’ve had this year, it doesn’t bring any comfort to the family. It certainly doesn’t bring any comfort to me.”
Among the ten largest cities, Philadelphia’s murder rate was 20.7 per 100,000. The next closest is Chicago, at 15.7, according to Commissioner Ramsey, who was Chicago’s top cop, before he came here from Washington DC.
Good thing this has nothing at all to do with anything I posted. Your heroic streak of useless posts continues. Keep up the good work.
Edit: Also, it's hilarious that you are complaining about South Jersey's identity and then at the end of the day you compare Philly to.... Brooklyn.
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Originally Posted by EBWick
NJ gained a certain amount of national rep when The Soprano's became big and even when those ridiculous "Real Housewives" mooks got famous. When people think of NJ across the country, they don't think of bland Cherry Hill. They think of Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark & the northern suburbs.
They also don't think of bland insert-name-of-arbitrary-North Jersey-sprawl-town here. I don't think anybody is denying that the north's cities have a better vibe than the south's. I already said earlier in this thread that I'm proud of the strides Newark is making and I think it's great news for the city that the Devils moved there. It actually gives them a home, not a parking lot.
Do you understand, that this is all one big country right? The United States of America. This is not a death race or competition. We don't need to "steal" anything and try to "prove ourselves" to Philly or anyone else. You're saying people in South Jersey are delusional because their content? You're the one whose delusional if you think that we all need to be clawing at each others throats over everything. I'm sorry that NYC flushes its toilet and it winds up in your backyard, but get over it.
Seriously, why all the hate? What are we talking about and comparing here? The Devils play in Newark and in terms of "second rate cesspools" I think Newark is ahead of Philly on that list. NYC is a great city, one of the greatest in the world, but we have posters here screaming that NJ needs its own identity and that the folks in South Jersey are just the battered spouses of Philly. Then you trump out how much better NYC is. It's like one battered wife telling another how much better her husband is. You guys really need to get over it, especially considering that the Flyers and Rangers fans in this thread have been actually trying to talk about HOCKEY.
Do you understand, that this is all one big country right? The United States of America. This is not a death race or competition. We don't need to "steal" anything and try to "prove ourselves" to Philly or anyone else. You're saying people in South Jersey are delusional because their content? You're the one whose delusional if you think that we all need to be clawing at each others throats over everything. I'm sorry that NYC flushes its toilet and it winds up in your backyard, but get over it.
I'm re-quoting because this one is my favorite. It's South Jersey's frame of mind in a nutshell.
Do you think the Pennsylvania government is going to fix Camden? Is the Pennsylvania government going to reinvigorate Atlantic City (they are actively competing against it. Penn would love nothing more than to see Atlantic City fail).
Did Jersey City gain momentum with this type of subservient thought process? Hell no. They used their assets to lure business, educated people & the rest. So keep acting like SJ & Philly are BFF's. You seem to be getting the short end of that relationship though.
I wonder at times if exchanges like these are not a "North vs South Jersey" thing, as much as they are a new twist on a centuries-old "NYC vs Philly" thing. For instance, would, or could, such banter be as pronounced if citizen "a" is from Gladwynne, and citizen "b" from Scarsdale? Citizen "a" from Newtown Square, and citizen "b" from Farmingdale? Citizen "a" from Wilmington, and citizen "b" from Stamford?
I'm re-quoting because this one is my favorite. It's South Jersey's frame of mind in a nutshell.
Do you think the Pennsylvania government is going to fix Camden? Is the Pennsylvania government going to reinvigorate Atlantic City (they are actively competing against it. Penn would love nothing more than to see Atlantic City fail).
Did Jersey City gain momentum with this type of subservient thought process? Hell no. They used their assets to lure business, educated people & the rest. So keep acting like SJ & Philly are BFF's. You seem to be getting the short end of that relationship though.
South Jersey probably has a better shot of getting Camden fixed and AC reinvigorated by dealing with the PA government then we do dealing with the NJ government, but I digress.
What I challenge is this idea that South Jersey by being culturally identified with and economically tied to Philadelphia is therefore subservient and submissive. I also challenge the notion that North Jersey is somehow different in this regard with their relationship with NYC. Here's something for you to think about, would North Jersey exist in anything like its current state if it wasn't for NYC? No, it wouldn't. You want to act like North Jersey is some economic engine unto itself and deride South Jersey for playing second fiddle to Philly. Well, hate to break it to you, North Jersey IS a second fiddle to NYC. Always has been, always will be. The difference is that North Jersey us a much bigger second fiddle, but it is a second fiddle nonetheless.
Do you even know why the cities in North Jersey exist? They exist because when the immigrants landed in NYC they were taken across the river to NJ to be cheap wage labor in factories, that's the foundation of North Jersey. The same thing didn't happen in the South Jersey with Philly, because Philly actually had the room to grow and build the factories itself. South Jersey didn't even really come into existence outside of Camden (which basically consisted of the shipyard, Campbell's and RCA) and a smattering of small towns and farms until the 1960's and 1970's. The vast majority of people who live in South Jersey trace their roots back to Philly as most are transplants who fled the city for the suburbs.
Your entire point, if there actually was one, was that South Jerseyan's are somehow delusional or foolish to root for Philly sports teams over the "New Jersey" team. We are somehow "tricked" into thinking that we're "BFF's" with Philly and that blinds us to our own issues. You're so far offbase and out there, that I don't even see a point to prove. Face it, NJ...the ENTIRE F'ING STATE...is one giant SUBURB of Philly and NYC. If anything, South Jersey is far less dependent economically on Philly then North Jersey is on NYC. If you want to "identify with" and "believe in" the "great cities" of North Jersey (with their entire combined population less then one borough of NYC) and their one sports team that most people in the state don't give a rats ass about, then have at it.
I grew up 10 minutes from Philly, I currently live about 30 minutes away from Philly. Everything you identify as "NJ" and the things I'm supposed to be proud of and in touch with, mean nothing to me. It's not an inferiority complex and I'm not delusional, it's just reality. The idea that I should cheer for the Devils because they are from New Jersey is ludicrous. You don't think proximity and exposure has anything to do with what team someone is going to root for?
Just a final thought. I don't really give a crap about Philly and I don't really give a crap about North Jersey either and I seriously doubt either really gives a crap about South Jersey. We'll take care of ourselves the way we always have and we'll continue to root for the only major sports teams that are on our TV's, support charities and events in our towns and actually think we exist. When the Devils start having youth hockey camps in South Jersey and Giants players start doing charity events locally, etc. Maybe some of us will start to see things a little different. Of course, the Devils have a hard enough time getting people in their "backyard" to notice that they exist so it will probably be a long time before they head down our way.
We'll take care of ourselves the way we always have and we'll continue to root for the only major sports teams that are on our TV's, support charities and events in our towns and actually think we exist.
Just to be clear, I personally don't want loozah Philly fans rooting for any of my teams. Take that stupid, busted Liberty Bell and shove it up Ben Franklin's ass!
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