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The Rangers and Flyers and many other NHL teams exist in markets that are just as crowded in terms of other sports from all the major leagues, still they have no problem selling out games. Overall it all comes down to money and whether or not the franchise really has a place in its current location. Having won three cups in the past 17 years and heading into a fifth appearance, this team should have no problem drawing fans, yet they do.
Flyers have to compete with only 3 pro teams; the Rangers play in the middle of Manhattan. I don't know many markets with 2 NFL teams, 2 MLB teams, 2 NBA teams and 3 NHL teams, not including college sports. This is what the Devils are faced with, yet they've averaged 15,000+ the year after they missed the postseason. Again, what do you think their attendance should be?
This article basically sums up the main reason why they have problems drawing, and it's not just because of location and money issues: NHL - John Buccigross: The New Jersey Devils have a bad reputation - ESPN
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I've personally been to Devils-Flyers games at the rock where the entire upper bowl was virtually Flyers fans, was it 50/50, 40/60, who knows, but it sure as heck felt like I was at a home game for the Flyers. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if it's 10%, 30% or 1%, the Devils have long had a fan issue. After a score when I can hear the "boos" from Flyer's fans louder then the cheers from Devils fans during a playoff game does the percent really matter?
A section/sections =/= the entire upper deck. Watch the vids I posted. You're telling me with a straight face that Flyers fans visiting was equal to the road teams fans visiting in those arenas? No way.
Flyers have to compete with only 3 pro teams; the Rangers play in the middle of Manhattan. I don't know many markets with 2 NFL teams, 2 MLB teams, 2 NBA teams and 3 NHL teams, not including college sports. This is what the Devils are faced with, yet they've averaged 15,000+ the year after they missed the postseason. Again, what do you think their attendance should be?
This article basically sums up the main reason why they have problems drawing, and it's not just because of location and money issues: NHL - John Buccigross: The New Jersey Devils have a bad reputation - ESPN
Considering the size of the NYC metro market, it is probably the only one that can handle that kind of saturation. Still though, one of the NHL teams should go, it only makes sense for the market and for the league. Both the Islanders and Devils are poor draws. The Islanders because of insanely inept management and poor performance. The Devils...well who knows.
I thought the Buccigross article was well written, but do you really think that the "show" and "marketing" aspect is what the Devil's are missing? Do you really think that attendance wasn't great because they weren't gimmicky with the music played, giveaways, fan appreciation and the comfort level of their seats and quality of the food? Does all of that outweigh the product on the ice which, let's face it and I freely admit, has been one of the most succesful organizations over the past almost two decades?
Does it really all come back to the organization not making fans feel like they care about them? As a longtime Flyer's fan, I guarantee you our organization could give a rats behind about us for the most part and the product they have put on the ice, while competitive and entertaining hasn't always been stellar. Yet, we all line up to pay $70 for a seat in the nosebleeds and gladly shell out $9 a pop for watered down Yuenglueng and stale popcorn. About as appreciated as we get is a free t-shirt with a giant Comcast logo on the back and a bobblehead brought to us by a local car dealer. Yet, we still line up in droves to support the team.
If the Devil's can't build a succesful and invigorated fanbase on all of their success, I'm not convinved it's sales and marketing that is going to change that. If the Flyer's and Ranger's can sell out games riding past glories for 40+ years, what is the reason the Devil's can't have that kind of success when they are still making history and winning championships?
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A section/sections =/= the entire upper deck. Watch the vids I posted. You're telling me with a straight face that Flyers fans visiting was equal to the road teams fans visiting in those arenas? No way.
You hear any boos during these plays?
First off, I said the "entire upper deck" was during regular season games, not the playoffs. As for the booing, I heard plenty as well as very robust "Let's Go Flyer's" cheers throughout game 3 and 4 in NJ.
Do you want to have a conversation that doesn't involve name calling? If you read what I have written I never ONCE downed the Devil's, I criticized things in their organization and play style that are widely reported and discussed topics in the NHL.
I NEVER said that the Devil's played a trap, what I said was that they were making heavy use of obstruction in the form of clutching and grabbing and stepping into skaters lanes. These types of things were supposed to not be allowed anymore, but the enforcement has gotten very lax over the past couple of years. The Devils have built their system around clutch and grab followed up with an aggressive forecheck to generate scoring opportunities. The issue is that the "clutch and grab" part is supposed to be penalized. This has nothing to do with playing a trap or rolling four lines.
It ultimately isn't just the Devil's doing it either, there are several teams that have been highlighted for doing it. Of course, two of the biggest ones are the Devil's and the King's. In the first years of the post lockout era it was scoring that won games, the highest scoring teams moved on. Now, we have a Stanley Cup Final between totally defensive teams that rode the lax obstruction rules to get there. The Kings are the second best defense and second worst offense in hockey while the Devils are the 9th ranked defense and the 15th ranked offense. These are not high powered offensive teams which were supposed to be the "new standard".
Something tells me that if Philly was in the finals, their style of play wouldn't be an issue. Bryzgalov was a sieve in that series giving up 18 goals in 5 games (and he gave up a lot against the Pens). Apparently scoring goals was not a problem for the Devils.
I don't have a problem with a well-played 2-1 or 3-2 game. Goal scoring does not always equal good hockey. You conform your strategy to the athletes you have. The Rangers shot blocking may be annoying but it worked for them for much of the season. I don't fault them for doing it with one of the best goalies in all of hockey.
Considering the size of the NYC metro market, it is probably the only one that can handle that kind of saturation. Still though, one of the NHL teams should go, it only makes sense for the market and for the league. Both the Islanders and Devils are poor draws. The Islanders because of insanely inept management and poor performance. The Devils...well who knows.
I thought the Buccigross article was well written, but do you really think that the "show" and "marketing" aspect is what the Devil's are missing? Do you really think that attendance wasn't great because they weren't gimmicky with the music played, giveaways, fan appreciation and the comfort level of their seats and quality of the food? Does all of that outweigh the product on the ice which, let's face it and I freely admit, has been one of the most succesful organizations over the past almost two decades?
The Islanders have been rumored to relocate. Could help the Devils in terms of luring more fans even if outside the state.
The article wasn't about gimmicks, music, etc. It's about the fact that the Devils have been unfairly labeled by the media as a boring, ultra-defensive, unlikeable franchise that ruins the game of hockey for years and no one from the Devils(especially Lou, the GM and President) has come out to publicly defend those negative claims. Lou's old school, stubborn, "status quo" attitude turns people off. He has problems with his own players being marketed/promoted, doesn't like any attention towards his team; he thinks that "Well we win, so that should be enough." No it's not. In fact you haven't "won" anything since 2003. They have a negative brand that might not matter with the die-hards but it does with the casuals, something sports teams could use yet the Devils really lack. And let's not forget about their marketing and PR(or lack thereof)which their own fans criticize them for and rightfully so. This excerpt sums it up:
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The Devils and Lamoriello didn't care what you thought about them. Yet the fact of the hockey matter is, businesses and sports teams should care. They have to care. You can't market a team in the GM's image.
Something tells me that if Philly was in the finals, their style of play wouldn't be an issue. Bryzgalov was a sieve in that series giving up 18 goals in 5 games (and he gave up a lot against the Pens). Apparently scoring goals was not a problem for the Devils.
What style of play would that be? You aren't honestly going to play off the old "Broad Street Bullies" cliche, are you? If anything the Flyer's lacked a certain amount of grit and have for the past couple seasons, it's one of the major complaints fans have had about the team. They are very skilled, skate and score well, but they lack the physical aspect and tenacity throughout the lineup. This year was better with the addition of players like Talbot and Simmonds, but still the polar opposite of the stereotypical Flyer's teams. I would also say that the Flyers hardly played "dirty", the dirty crown this year goes to the Pens with the Rangers in second.
As for Bryzgalov (aka Bryzaster), trust me, no one is harder on him then Flyer's fans. He is our "superstar" $51 million goalie and spent long stretches of the season unable to stop a beachball. His 'oddness' that came out in the HBO 24/7 series didn't help either..."the universe is soooo HUMONGOUS...I'm not afraid of anything. I'm afraid of bears, but bears in the forest." Just say it with a bad Russian accent, lol.
The Pens series was so odd for both teams with how it was played. I was concerned over Bryz's play, but it was really hard to judge it based on how open the games were and loose everyone was playing. He had so moments of brilliance and tended to keep the team in most games.
In the Devil's series I thought Bryz actually played very well. The Devil's completely shut down and frustrated the Flyer's forwards who didn't have the size to fight through the tight neutral zone play of the Devils. You can usually beat that with "dump and chase", but that's not happening when the Devil's have the BEST puck handling goalie to most likely ever play the game. On the offense, the Devil's forecheck simply overwhelmed a very depleted Flyer's defense. When we're relying on Matt Carle to log 30 minutes and doing the same with an empty tank 37 year old Timonen, they just couldn't keep up and got beaten down. While Bryz let in a couple of bad goals in the series, many of the Devil's goals were simply unstoppable or the fault of the defense letting the Devils skate freely in our zone.
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I don't have a problem with a well-played 2-1 or 3-2 game. Goal scoring does not always equal good hockey. You conform your strategy to the athletes you have. The Rangers shot blocking may be annoying but it worked for them for much of the season. I don't fault them for doing it with one of the best goalies in all of hockey.
I don't have an issue with low scoring hockey games either, it's what I grew up watching. The issue that I have is that the NHL set out to change the rules post lockout to make the game more open and made many rule changes to discourage and penalize the older trap systems that relied on physical play. The rules were designed to encourage teams to get smaller and place more emphasis on the finesse players by giving them room to do their thing.
The Flyer's are just one of many teams that changed their overall composition to compete under these new rules. Then, the NHL has seemed to make an about face and has gradually loosened the officiating of interference/obstruction that was supposed to have been removed from the game (this is the cruz of the articles I shared). The Devil's are using this to great advantage. It's not sour grapes though, really just an observation (shared widely with many hockey fans) that the NHL is incredibly inconsistent in the enforcement of rules and it does directly impact the game.
In the case of the Rangers their system is simply the reaction that teams that lack the offensive punch have taken. Since they don't have a high powered offense, they rely on collapsing back on their goalie and blocking shots. There is nothing wrong with that as, like you said, it works for them. However, even this is being reviewed now by the NHL and there is a decent number of people that are lobbying to actually have lay down shot blocking removed from the game as it has become so dominant.
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Originally Posted by Marv95
The Islanders have been rumored to relocate. Could help the Devils in terms of luring more fans even if outside the state.
If I was making the decision, I would move the Islanders. While the geography of the fanbase doesn't really work out, there is NO WAY the hardcore Islanders fans (pretty much the only ones left) would cheer for the Rangers. The Devils may just find themselves with some more fans.
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The article wasn't about gimmicks, music, etc. It's about the fact that the Devils have been unfairly labeled by the media as a boring, ultra-defensive, unlikeable franchise that ruins the game of hockey for years and no one from the Devils(especially Lou, the GM and President) has come out to publicly defend those negative claims. Lou's old school, stubborn, "status quo" attitude turns people off. He has problems with his own players being marketed/promoted, doesn't like any attention towards his team; he thinks that "Well we win, so that should be enough." No it's not. In fact you haven't "won" anything since 2003. They have a negative brand that might not matter with the die-hards but it does with the casuals, something sports teams could use yet the Devils really lack. And let's not forget about their marketing and PR(or lack thereof)which their own fans criticize them for and rightfully so. This excerpt sums it up:
So, what's the solution? Maybe have Lou step down as President?
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Originally Posted by Jersey08057
@NJGOAT. You have to admit it was different this playoff year. The flyers and rangers didn't invade the devils home games like previous years.
Not to the same extent as previous years, but way more then what you would see in terms of Devils fans at a Flyers or Rangers game. I don't think any Flyers or Rangers fans at the "Rock" we're feeling like the proverbial black sheep in the crowd.
Yikes...way too much analysis in this thread and way too little plain enjoyment of the sport. Every sport/team would suck if you look at from this viewpoint! This thread reads like a crappy assignment from a sports marketing class Last night was good hockey even though the Devils got off to a bad start. Let's see what happens on Saturday.
Yikes...way too much analysis in this thread and way too little plain enjoyment of the sport. Every sport/team would suck if you look at from this viewpoint! This thread reads like a crappy assignment from a sports marketing class Last night was good hockey even though the Devils got off to a bad start. Let's see what happens on Saturday.
LOL, my sentiments exactly.
Here is my analysis, simple yet straightforward. The only chance the Devils have to win this series is if Brodeur plays like he did at the peak of his career. Yesterday, Marty played pretty well and made a handful of more difficult saves than Jonathan Quick. Despite this, the devils still lost. So, unless the devils find out a way to beat Quick, I don't see this series going past 5 games. Rangers should be representing the East anyway (thoughts from a bitter, yet objective rangers fan )
Yikes...way too much analysis in this thread and way too little plain enjoyment of the sport. Every sport/team would suck if you look at from this viewpoint! This thread reads like a crappy assignment from a sports marketing class Last night was good hockey even though the Devils got off to a bad start. Let's see what happens on Saturday.
Fair enough, we can save the hockey analysis for the hockey boards.
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Originally Posted by Yankees1212
LOL, my sentiments exactly.
Here is my analysis, simple yet straightforward. The only chance the Devils have to win this series is if Brodeur plays like he did at the peak of his career. Yesterday, Marty played pretty well and made a handful of more difficult saves than Jonathan Quick. Despite this, the devils still lost. So, unless the devils find out a way to beat Quick, I don't see this series going past 5 games. Rangers should be representing the East anyway (thoughts from a bitter, yet objective rangers fan )
Brodeur has been the key to every series the Devils have played. He's absolutely regained his form after he got yanked in the Panther's series, it really seemed to wake him up. He's certainly lost some of his speed, but his positioing and puck handling are superb. He's making up for the slight step he's lost with plain hockey sense. I honestly can't think of another goalie playing that has been as consistently good as Brodeur, most of them the past decade have been "flash in the pan" types, brilliant for a season and their team rides them to a cup and then nothing. Once Brodeur's gone, it seems the last of that breed may be gone with him.
In casual conversation, I actually picked the Devils to win in 6 or 7. I think the Devils offense is less potent then the Kings, overall, but the Devils have an arguably better defensive core and a better fourth line. The Devils also took both meetings with the Kings in the regular season, though the Kings are a different team now and the regular season record tends to not mean much come playoff time. Like you said though, it all comes down to goaltending. In that case, the smart money is on Brodeur because he is well...Brodeur.
Devils lose both of there games at home. Saying they are in trouble would be an understatement. I only saw bits and pieces of the game but from what I saw, the devils struggled creating opportunities on the power play.
Looks like I might be spot on with my prediction
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Last night was good hockey even though the Devils got off to a bad start. Let's see what happens on Saturday.
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