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I taught elementary school in MD, and have lived in NJ for awhile now. The states have similar demographics. Interesting to note, MD spends much less on education than NJ mainly because of administrative costs. The school systems are by county.
I have to agree with this. I understand teachers are paid well in NJ but that tends to be because they live in NJ and they have to survive in NJ so you have to pay a decent NJ wage.
The waste occurs when you have all these fat cats at the top of every single district doing god knows what. The teachers take the brunt of the crap when in reality they have no control over what goes on at the top. Also its ironic that the people making the big bucks it seems have very little to do with the children. As long as we continue to "blame" teachers these fat cats are skating by with six figure salaries.
I taught elementary school in MD, and have lived in NJ for awhile now. The states have similar demographics. Interesting to note, MD spends much less on education than NJ mainly because of administrative costs. The school systems are by county.
What a great idea, I wonder why nobody in NJ ever thought of that?
I think secretly some in NJ like to brag about their highest in the Nation property taxes.
My point is they're spending less, but still getting good results. But you do lose the small town feel. There's positives to the way NJ does things as well.
I'd be interested to see the breakdown in spending on a per pupil basis in MD vs. NJ to see where the cost savings actually is. Here is my districts budget...
Total Budgetary Comparative Per Pupil Cost.....14087
Total Classroom Instruction...........................8772 62.2%
Classroom-Salaries and Benefits.....................7696 54.6%
Classroom-General Supplies and Textbooks.......423 3.0%
Classroom-Purchased Services and Other.........653 4.6%
Total Support Services.................................2082 14.7%
Support Services-Salaries and Benefits............1757 12.5%
Total Administrative Costs............................1339 9.5%
Administration-Salaries and Benefits................1030 7.3%
Total Operations and Maintenance of Plant......1814 12.9%
Operations & Maint. of Plant-Salary & Ben........292 2.0%
Board Contribution to Food Services................0 0% Total Extracurricular Costs............................63 0.4% Total Equipment Costs.................................27 0.1%
Employee Benefits as a % of Salaries..............31.7% (Percent of total salary that goes to benefits)
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Each percentage listed is the percentage of the total spend per pupil. The sections bolded roll up to the total with anything underneath of the "bold/underlined" being a part of that larger category.
So, in my district 62.2% of every dollar spent is being spent in the classroom with almost 55% of every dollar going directly to the teachers. Support services which is everything from nurses and secretaries to therapists and counselors, etc. accounts for 14.7% of every dollar spent, most of which is salary. Administrative costs is principals, superintendent and the child study team department head. That accounts for 9.5% of every dollar and the salaries account for 7.3%. Operations and Plant include transportation, maintenance of the buildings, etc. and that accounts for 12.9% of the total.
So, the "administrative salary pie" at least in my district is 7.3% of every dollar spent. I know our superintendent makes $138,328 a year in salary and benefits. Divide that by the 793 kids in the district and you get $174 per kid going to the superintendents salary or 1.2% of every dollar spent.
I agree that in many districts and places the numbers may be different and there is a lot of overlap, but I do think that to an extent people overstate the impact of administrative costs caused by homerule. Especially when you consider that it's not as if (as illustrated above) you can exactly eliminate principals and heads of special needs support programs easily through consolidation.
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As for the OP, it would be interesting to see exactly what each of the categories was measuring. I posted a composite study awhile back:
This is a composite of dozens of independent studies that Kentucky of all states compiles every few years to show how each state ranks relative to their own. This is a selection of the various measures and where NJ ranks as well as an explanation of what each measures:
Quote:
Study/Measure.......................NJ
Graduation Rate.....................2
Student:Staff Ratio.................3
Teacher Pay..........................4
% Teacher to Total Staff.........14
Title I Schools (lower=better)...51
School Violence (lower=better)..48
Spending per Pupil...................2
ACT Score.............................16
AP Testing.............................11
SAT Participation(1).................4
SAT Reading...........................40
SAT Math...............................34
SAT Writing............................35
NAEP(2) Reading.......................4
NAEP Math...............................5
NAEP Science...........................18
Achieve(3) Analysis...................6
Casey Kids Count(4)..................7
Congressional Quarterly(5).........2
Gates Foundation (6).................2
Education Week Diplomas(7).......1
Education Week Minority Diploma..2
Education Week Quality (8).........4
Ed. Week Achievement Index(9)...2
1. States with high participation have lower average scores.
2. NAEP is the national standardized proficiency testing done in 4th and 8th grade and is the national measurement for school performance.
3. Measures the graduation rate and college entrance/retention rate.
4. Measures the overall well being of children within the state including access to healthcare, teen birth rates, poverty, etc.
5. Measures the efficacy of educational financing.
6. Measures fairness of educational funding in rich vs. poor districts.
7. Measures the graduation rate and diploma "quality".
8. Measures the overall quality of education received.
9. Measures the probability of future educational/career success.
In every measure related to actual quality of education NJ ranks among the highest in the nation. Certainly there are areas we can improve upon and each individual study produces a different list of rankings based on their own unique measures. In that way, individual studies aren't much different from the NJ Monthly rankings that come out that give extra weight to class size and student:teacher ratio over actual academic achievement.
In that same thread I also posted the comparative of NJ to MD as soug had specifically asked for it...
Quote:
Study/Measure.......................NJ.................. MD
Graduation Rate.....................2....................16
Student:Staff Ratio.................3....................33
Teacher Pay..........................4.................... 12
% Teacher to Total Staff.........14..................11
Title I Schools (lower=better)...51..................30
School Violence (lower=better)..48..................2
Spending per Pupil...................2....................13
ACT Score.............................16.............. .....30
AP Testing.............................11............ .......2
SAT Participation(1).................4................ ....12
SAT Reading...........................40.............. .....35
SAT Math...............................34............. ......38
SAT Writing............................35............. .......35
NAEP(2) Reading.......................4................... ..28
NAEP Math...............................5.............. .......27
NAEP Science...........................18.............. ......26
Achieve(3) Analysis...................6...................... 22
Casey Kids Count(4)..................7......................2 3
Congressional Quarterly(5).........2.......................22
Gates Foundation (6).................2......................28
Education Week Diplomas(7).......1......................20
Education Week Minority Diploma..2......................6
Education Week Quality (8).........4......................5
Ed. Week Achievement Index(9)...2......................25
That is older data then what is in that one study, but includes far more then a single data point. I won't go so far as to say "MD sucks", but I also don't think they are "better" then NJ overall. No matter how you slice it, in multiple studies NJ perennially ranks in the top five for education nationwide and even scores high on the "ROI" in terms of dollars spent relative to achievement level.
Do these school rankings really mean anything anyway? I have no idea what the schools I attended were ranked when I was a kid, nor did my parents. Same story with my wife. Fast forward to today we are two normal, well adjusted adults with college degrees, decent jobs, a home, and (in our opinion), a nice little middle class life. I have no idea what the schools in my town are ranked, but I do know that the school buildings are safe, clean, well lit environments and that the parents in town seem to be involved and happy with what is going on there. My daughter is only 15 months old so we have a while to go but once it comes time for her to go to school we don't plan on obsessing over rankings. We plan on being involved her and her siblings education, being in contact with her teachers, and making sure that she is working to her full potential. I don't care if my kids go to vocational school, community college, or Princeton as long as they're happy, well adjusted, able to make a decent living, and don't come out of school with mountains of debt that will hang over them for 20-30 years. That's the one regret both my wife and I have about college. We're lucky as our student loan debt only amounts to about $50K between the two of us which pales in comparison to some people, but if I had it to do all over again I would have gone to vocational school for plumbing, electrical, and HVAC certifications and then gotten an Associates in Business from a community college. I'd have no debt and would likely be making a lot more than I am now.
Now before some of you come for my head over this, yes I do realize that there are plenty of beyond substandard schools that are falling apart, unsafe, ill-equipped, and full of faculty who are burned out and not doing their jobs. At the same time let's not pretend that these schools are located in the lily white suburbs either-they're located in the decaying urban centers of our state, and the problems run much deeper than the schools. However, when you start comparing the school systems of Northeastern states against each other and getting all worked up about who is ranked where in the top ten, that's first world problems at its best.
Check any suburban area in NJ and we have good schools
Check any inner city in NJ and....
I used to take this to be the gospel too. But I've found out it's not really true. Sure good parents=better schools than bad parents but having good, involved, educated parents is just not enough.
Do these school rankings really mean anything anyway? I have no idea what the schools I attended were ranked when I was a kid, nor did my parents. Same story with my wife. Fast forward to today we are two normal, well adjusted adults with college degrees, decent jobs, a home, and (in our opinion), a nice little middle class life. I have no idea what the schools in my town are ranked, but I do know that the school buildings are safe, clean, well lit environments and that the parents in town seem to be involved and happy with what is going on there. My daughter is only 15 months old so we have a while to go but once it comes time for her to go to school we don't plan on obsessing over rankings. We plan on being involved her and her siblings education, being in contact with her teachers, and making sure that she is working to her full potential. I don't care if my kids go to vocational school, community college, or Princeton as long as they're happy, well adjusted, able to make a decent living, and don't come out of school with mountains of debt that will hang over them for 20-30 years. That's the one regret both my wife and I have about college. We're lucky as our student loan debt only amounts to about $50K between the two of us which pales in comparison to some people, but if I had it to do all over again I would have gone to vocational school for plumbing, electrical, and HVAC certifications and then gotten an Associates in Business from a community college. I'd have no debt and would likely be making a lot more than I am now.
Now before some of you come for my head over this, yes I do realize that there are plenty of beyond substandard schools that are falling apart, unsafe, ill-equipped, and full of faculty who are burned out and not doing their jobs. At the same time let's not pretend that these schools are located in the lily white suburbs either-they're located in the decaying urban centers of our state, and the problems run much deeper than the schools. However, when you start comparing the school systems of Northeastern states against each other and getting all worked up about who is ranked where in the top ten, that's first world problems at its best.
I think what you have written is correct. However I also think that times (and schools) have changed since you (we) went to school. Schools did not have to contend with the issues currently facing them - unions, NCLB, race to the top, classifications, inclusion etc. There is so much teaching to the test and to the lowest level of learner - I only wish my kids could attend public schools 30 years ago.
I think what you have written is correct. However I also think that times (and schools) have changed since you (we) went to school. Schools did not have to contend with the issues currently facing them - unions, NCLB, race to the top, classifications, inclusion etc. There is so much teaching to the test and to the lowest level of learner - I only wish my kids could attend public schools 30 years ago.
I'm only 31 so it hasn't been that long since I was in school. All of my teachers were NJEA members so nothing new under the sun there. Sure, NCLB didn't exist, but other than that we had standardized testing, etc... As for teaching to the test and the lowest level of learner I believe that is where parent intervention becomes key. Stepping back for a moment though, ok, let's say that a kid does go through one of these schools, where they "teach to the lowest level" and he makes As and Bs, plays football, is involved in extracurricular activities, ends up going to Rutgers or TCNJ (or "insert name of state here" State), and gets a job and starts a life. Did he somehow fail because he didn't become President of the Harvard Law Review and get nominated to the Supreme Court two years out of Law School?
Check any suburban area in NJ and we have good schools
Check any inner city in NJ and....
Not necessarily a regional thing. NJ has a handful of good schools and they generally have good parents living in those towns. However, I know plenty of parents that live in "bad school" areas that are "good parents" and send their children to private school.
Not necessarily a regional thing. NJ has a handful of good schools and they generally have good parents living in those towns. However, I know plenty of parents that live in "bad school" areas that are "good parents" and send their children to private school.
You can also have "bad parents" in "good school" areas. If Johnny lives in Mendham he should get a world class education and be the next CEO of a Fortune500 right? If Johnny's dad works long hours at his six figure job in the city and Johnny's mom is too busy auditioning for the next season of "Real Housewives of New Jersey" and Johnny discovers the wonders of heroin in 10th grade things might not work out so well.
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