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You've related your experience before and let's just say it was world's different from mine (and obviously slants your entire view on this topic) and I attended a rather average small public school in South Jersey. Among my graduating class of 140 or so kids several people went on to attend; Harvard, Boston College, Northwestern, American University and Princeton. The graduating class from Haddonfield High School (ranked among the top public schools in the state) in South Jersey routinely sends the top 10% of their graduating class onto top 50 colleges and universities.
I'm sure the connections among top-tier private schools is stronger with top colleges and universities. However, is that a function of the private school itself or simply the reality related to the fact that kids who go there most likely have fairly wealthy parents who themselves most likely attended top-tier schools?
All of this is essentially irrelevent though. You and obrero are basically using the "1%" example (no negative connotation there) to make a case. The average person cannot afford to send their kid to Morristown Beard and pay $33k a year for tuition. You are citing the "elite of the elite" in private education and comparing that to public schools. I would argue that a kid going to school in Millburn will most likely receive an equal education to those at the top private schools. I would also be willing to bet that they will have an equal consideration to get into a top tier school.
However, no one is really talking about Millburn and Morristown Beard. Let's talk about a "typical" town like East Windsor. Folks in East Windsor on average aren't affording $20k+ a year private school tuition. They might be able to swing the $10k or so a year for an average private school, but they wouldn't be buying anything better then their public school district has to offer. That's where the argument lies, on the average and the average middleclass family in NJ is getting a pretty darn good return on their school taxes compared to what they could realistically afford in private education.
Well I wouldn't say that. A good return? Seems like you can't be middle class and survive in NJ these days.
I'm assuming you were also applying to college before the huge influx in cost, also competition. By the mid-2000's it was an absolutely **** show getting into college.
Well I wouldn't say that. A good return? Seems like you can't be middle class and survive in NJ these days.
..and yet, the roughly 90% of NJ's 8.8+ million residents that are considered "middleclass" seem to be here year after year "surviving".
Quote:
I'm assuming you were also applying to college before the huge influx in cost, also competition. By the mid-2000's it was an absolutely **** show getting into college.
I graduated high school in 1998 and from college in 2002. I assure you that the university I attended was never considered "non-competitive" in terms of admission nor was it ever "affordable".
..and yet, the roughly 90% of NJ's 8.8+ million residents that are considered "middleclass" seem to be here year after year "surviving".
Doesn't mean they are happy.
I graduated high school in 1998 and from college in 2002. I assure you that the university I attended was never considered "non-competitive" in terms of admission nor was it ever "affordable".
Late 1990s was a MUCH MUCH different time to be graduating and attending college. I had a teacher who graduated Villanova in 1999 and she said it was only $19,000 a year. By 2005 Villanova had to be over $30,000 per year. Not to mention it was easier to get in as competition got more cut throat. You guys had it better back then.
Late 1990s was a MUCH MUCH different time to be graduating and attending college. I had a teacher who graduated Villanova in 1999 and she said it was only $19,000 a year. By 2005 Villanova had to be over $30,000 per year. Not to mention it was easier to get in as competition got more cut throat. You guys had it better back then.
Perhaps we did, but I still fail to see the relevancy of this line of discussion to the overall conversation. Are you bascially arguing that people should spend $30k+ a year on private schools so that they have a slightly better chance of being able to send their kids to $50k+ a year colleges?
Listen, I'm not one to go around proclaiming the greatness of going to the "best" of everything. My entire argument has been that NJ public schools are:
a) Among the best in the nation and have been so for years. The quality is to the point that private school is simply not a necessary expense for anyone but the most wealthy who insist on the "best" and people who live in areas with poor school systems where average private schools may actually provide a better education.
b) Provide students graduating from those schools the ability to translate that education into the college of their choosing and succeed in the college environment by actually completing their degree (something NJ students are apparently among the best in the nation at). At the very least the best of students graduating from NJ public schools will certainly contend for Ivy League placement and be very competitive in top-tier schools.
If you want my personal take on education, it would be this...
Look at towns based on their DFG rankings done by the state. This shows you the relative socio-economic status of the district. Among towns that are similar to your own socio-economic situation, find the ones that consistently have well ranked school districts based on actual academic achievement. This in and of itself is not going to guarantee results, but you are pretty much guaranteeting your kids to be in an environment of kids from similar means and backgrounds and that the district will, at the very least, not hinder their ability to succeed academically and in most cases will actually help them excel.
When it comes to colleges and universities, it is all about "bang for the buck". If you're good enough to get into Princeton or Harvard, go for it. Those schools won't cost you a dime to attend. If you're looking at "near Ivy's" or small liberal arts colleges, then forget about it unless they want to give you a full ride. I attended a highly ranked and expensive school because I had a scholarship. No scholarship, no Ivy, then find an affordable school that has the type of campus culture you want and is strong in your field (because let's face it, once you're out of the top 25 or so schools it generally doesn't matter where you get your degree from). The only exception is if you are going into a highly compensated professional field like law or medicine where you most likely will need to spend the money on an expensive "name brand" school. Finally, there is nothing wrong with getting your "feet wet" and completing basic courses on the cheap at a county college before you transfer to a 4-year school to complete your degree. Speaking of community colleges, that's another level of educational excellence NJ offers that exceeds what's available in many states and a resource far too many people don't take advantage of.
Finally, there is nothing wrong with getting your "feet wet" and completing basic courses on the cheap at a county college before you transfer to a 4-year school to complete your degree. Speaking of community colleges, that's another level of educational excellence NJ offers that exceeds what's available in many states and a resource far too many people don't take advantage of.
i think this is a great move for people who want that big school name but dont want to pay full price. you end up with the same degree.
im surprised you are the same age as me, i would have thought you were older than me.
Finally, there is nothing wrong with getting your "feet wet" and completing basic courses on the cheap at a county college before you transfer to a 4-year school to complete your degree. Speaking of community colleges, that's another level of educational excellence NJ offers that exceeds what's available in many states and a resource far too many people don't take advantage of.
That's what I did. I went to community college for three years and then shopped around and transferred to the school that gave me the best deal. As a result I only incurred about $15K in student loan debt.
Perhaps we did, but I still fail to see the relevancy of this line of discussion to the overall conversation. Are you bascially arguing that people should spend $30k+ a year on private schools so that they have a slightly better chance of being able to send their kids to $50k+ a year colleges?
Listen, I'm not one to go around proclaiming the greatness of going to the "best" of everything. My entire argument has been that NJ public schools are:
a) Among the best in the nation and have been so for years. The quality is to the point that private school is simply not a necessary expense for anyone but the most wealthy who insist on the "best" and people who live in areas with poor school systems where average private schools may actually provide a better education.
b) Provide students graduating from those schools the ability to translate that education into the college of their choosing and succeed in the college environment by actually completing their degree (something NJ students are apparently among the best in the nation at). At the very least the best of students graduating from NJ public schools will certainly contend for Ivy League placement and be very competitive in top-tier schools.
If you want my personal take on education, it would be this...
Look at towns based on their DFG rankings done by the state. This shows you the relative socio-economic status of the district. Among towns that are similar to your own socio-economic situation, find the ones that consistently have well ranked school districts based on actual academic achievement. This in and of itself is not going to guarantee results, but you are pretty much guaranteeting your kids to be in an environment of kids from similar means and backgrounds and that the district will, at the very least, not hinder their ability to succeed academically and in most cases will actually help them excel.
When it comes to colleges and universities, it is all about "bang for the buck". If you're good enough to get into Princeton or Harvard, go for it. Those schools won't cost you a dime to attend. If you're looking at "near Ivy's" or small liberal arts colleges, then forget about it unless they want to give you a full ride. I attended a highly ranked and expensive school because I had a scholarship. No scholarship, no Ivy, then find an affordable school that has the type of campus culture you want and is strong in your field (because let's face it, once you're out of the top 25 or so schools it generally doesn't matter where you get your degree from). The only exception is if you are going into a highly compensated professional field like law or medicine where you most likely will need to spend the money on an expensive "name brand" school. Finally, there is nothing wrong with getting your "feet wet" and completing basic courses on the cheap at a county college before you transfer to a 4-year school to complete your degree. Speaking of community colleges, that's another level of educational excellence NJ offers that exceeds what's available in many states and a resource far too many people don't take advantage of.
I'm not suggesting that parents shell out a crap ton of money for their kids to go to private school in NJ. In other states (as I mentioned, California) it makes a lot of more sense to do so as the property taxes are lower, the public schools are more mediocre, and the tuition for private school is significantly lower as well.
I'm stating that private/catholic school in this state is still an option -- especially for those kids with rich parents that would sink to the bottom of the ocean in a public school. At least in private school they'll have a good guidance department look out for them (regardless of intellect) and help them out getting into the most appropriate 4 year (seriously, if your kid isn't the sharpest tool in the shed and you have money, this is a safe bet.)
My point is look beyond the statistics. Yes NJ has good public schools (whoop de frigging do) but the districts have a certain agenda and it's called "teaching the test" in efforts to push for the best numbers. In my experience, this isn't the best way to educate kids. In your experience, it seems to be the way to go (and no offense you sound a little on the elitist side when it comes to this issue.)
My point is look beyond the statistics. Yes NJ has good public schools (whoop de frigging do) but the districts have a certain agenda and it's called "teaching the test" in efforts to push for the best numbers. In my experience, this isn't the best way to educate kids. In your experience, it seems to be the way to go (and no offense you sound a little on the elitist side when it comes to this issue.)
i think its the best way. if it isnt getting the desired results, then we need better tests.
That's what I did. I went to community college for three years and then shopped around and transferred to the school that gave me the best deal. As a result I only incurred about $15K in student loan debt.
It's arguably the best option for almost anyone, especially with the ever expanding fields of study that they offer at community colleges. As an added bonus, many CC courses are taught by adjunct professors who are usually actually working the field they are teaching you about. It means getting a different perspective and maybe even some industry connections. Once you realize that the first two years of most 4-year degrees is basically fluff courses you have to take to complete the degree, community is a great option to do that at a fraction of the cost.
One of my neighbor's oldest sons did the community route. He was a high achiever in school, AP courses, honor roll, National Honor Society, Bloustein Scholar, etc. He also knew exactly what he wanted to go into and that he needed a masters level degree to do it. He went to community for two years, got perfect grades and then flipped that into a 3-year program at a university where he would earn both his BS and master's. All told, he will have earned his masters in 5 years and at 2/3rd's the cost of everyone else with the same degree and be entering his field about 2-3 years before most others.
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That's what I did. I went to community college for three years and then shopped around and transferred to the school that gave me the best deal. As a result I only incurred about $15K in student loan debt.
