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Old 04-11-2013, 06:23 PM
 
2,160 posts, read 4,964,297 times
Reputation: 5527

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I like all the skirting of gun issues in this thread. Drowning. Playing with matches. Obama. Abortion. Video games and violence on TV. Bad parenting. Farm accidents. Birth control. Power tools.

Yes, let's sweep the gun issues under the rug and bury our heads in the sand. To be respectful of the 2 families, right? Riiiiiiiight.

 
Old 04-11-2013, 06:32 PM
 
50,748 posts, read 36,447,875 times
Reputation: 76549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
I don't want to sound insensitive to anyone who has ever lost anyone to firearms violence. I love firearms and have owned and used them since a very early age. I have known three people personally that died from firearms. Contrast that to dozens killed in car accidents, farm accidents etc.

You may hate firearms but if you think that outlawing the ownership of firearms by anyone but government agents is going to make you safer you are a FOOL. History has made that clear. The 20th Century death toll from government control of gun ownership by citizens is anywhere from 50 to 100 million.

GL2
Show me ONE POST here that advocates outlawing the ownership of firearms by "anyone but government agents", just one... show me one politician that advocates this while you're at it. NO ONE is trying to take your precious guns away. Regulation is not a ban; there are many things in our lives which require background checks, from getting a job at Walmart to adopting a kitten from the shelter. Yet no one is running around paranoid proclaiming that background checks are just the first step to banning kitten adoptions altogether.

I find it ironic that gun "luvvers", who you'd think would feel safer than anyone, seem to be more fearful
than most people, not less, at least going by the vibe/rhetoric I read in threads like this.

I can't help but wonder if the gun-loving father of the 4 year old shooter has his own posts arguing against gun regulation somewhere on this or another forum, on a thread started after some previous gun tragedy? If he does, I would put money they would sound very similar to your own, complete with lists of stats and convoluted logic about how since more kids die from falling into toilets, guns shouldn't be regulated at all.

Last edited by ocnjgirl; 04-11-2013 at 06:50 PM..
 
Old 04-11-2013, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,564 posts, read 12,816,879 times
Reputation: 9400
One poster puts things in simple perspective. Gun ownership is a HUGE responsibility. Guns, primarily hand guns are designed to kill human beings. That is a cold fact. Forget about sports shooting and other nonsense. The gun is not something that is "sexy". It is an instrument of death. People should understand that the most profound thing in human living is the ceasing of life- DEATH. There is no excuse for accidental death of a child via a gun. There is no such thing as an accident just neglect of duty.

When a father is coming back from the gun shop after servicing his weapon...to toss it on the seat assuming it is unloaded causing it to discharge and kill his infant son, should not happen. To leave a gun laying about or in the reach of children shows total disrespect for the gun and in turn disrespect for your own child.

I believe that some parent with guns in the house really don't get it. The gun represents death..whether by intent or not. If you had the grim reaper as a house guest I am sure you would never let the killer out of your sight.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 06:53 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,726,340 times
Reputation: 20852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
I don't want to sound insensitive to anyone who has ever lost anyone to firearms violence. I love firearms and have owned and used them since a very early age. I have known three people personally that died from firearms. Contrast that to dozens killed in car accidents, farm accidents etc.

You may hate firearms but if you think that outlawing the ownership of firearms by anyone but government agents is going to make you safer you are a FOOL. History has made that clear. The 20th Century death toll from government control of gun ownership by citizens is anywhere from 50 to 100 million.

GL2
It certainly would have made that 6 year old safer.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 06:54 PM
 
4,286 posts, read 10,765,133 times
Reputation: 3810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docendo discimus View Post
I like all the skirting of gun issues in this thread. Drowning. Playing with matches. Obama. Abortion. Video games and violence on TV. Bad parenting. Farm accidents. Birth control. Power tools.

Yes, let's sweep the gun issues under the rug and bury our heads in the sand. To be respectful of the 2 families, right? Riiiiiiiight.
Is it really an issue though?

Accidents occasionally happen, especially around young children. The parents obviously made a terrible mistake leaving the gun where they did.

Its an unfortunate, sad situation. But we should not be banning anything because a 4 year old cant use it properly.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 06:57 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,726,340 times
Reputation: 20852
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantRutgersfan View Post
Is it really an issue though?

Accidents occasionally happen, especially around young children. The parents obviously made a terrible mistake leaving the gun where they did.

Its an unfortunate, sad situation. But we should not be banning anything because a 4 year old cant use it properly.
No we should be discussing gun ownership because ADULTS CANNOT USE IT PROPERLY. The adults did not use and store their gun properly.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 07:04 PM
 
10,222 posts, read 19,206,528 times
Reputation: 10894
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post
Personal responsibility includes taking responsibility for ones possessions and what one does with them.
Responsibility for what one does with them. Not responsibility for what another competent adult does with them.

Quote:
When a dog bites a child, the owner is responsible. When you lend your car, they come under your insurance. Guns are designed purely to kill and yet you seem to think owners should take less responsibility than pet and car owners.
If someone steals my car and runs another person over with it, I am not responsible for that. If someone dognaps my dog and the dog subsequently bites someone, I am also not responsible. If I sell my car to someone else, I am no longer responsible for what happens to it. Personal responsibility has limits. You're simply trying to extend those limits to untenable extremes in the case of guns, to make gun ownership itself untenable.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 07:35 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
3,859 posts, read 9,976,324 times
Reputation: 3400
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler View Post
Responsibility for what one does with them. Not responsibility for what another competent adult does with them. If someone steals my car and runs another person over with it, I am not responsible for that. If someone dognaps my dog and the dog subsequently bites someone, I am also not responsible. If I sell my car to someone else, I am no longer responsible for what happens to it. Personal responsibility has limits. You're simply trying to extend those limits to untenable extremes in the case of guns, to make gun ownership itself untenable.
You're playing semantics with what the other poster is saying. If my guns are locked in a safe (which they are) and I'm on vacation for two weeks and some breaks into the house, actually finds the safe (which would not be easy), and then uses extraordinary measures to get into the safe, and steals them, of course I'm not responsible for what they do with them. This is not even remotely what happened here. A loaded firearm was left within reach of a child-that's the HEIGHT of irresponsibility.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,564 posts, read 12,816,879 times
Reputation: 9400
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantRutgersfan View Post
Is it really an issue though?

Accidents occasionally happen, especially around young children. The parents obviously made a terrible mistake leaving the gun where they did.

Its an unfortunate, sad situation. But we should not be banning anything because a 4 year old cant use it properly.
That's a deflective statement. It's not even remotely realistic to say "because a 4 year old can't use it properly" It would be more in keeping with reality to say- The parents did not know how to use their children properly...This was not good use but abuse. To put this off as an occasional accident is as silly as leaving our 4 year old free to wander on the roof of a 100 story building. This had nothing to do with guns or gun safety - It was about child neglect and lack of real and responsible supervision.
 
Old 04-11-2013, 08:47 PM
 
3,984 posts, read 7,074,799 times
Reputation: 2889
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantRutgersfan View Post
Is it really an issue though?

Accidents occasionally happen, especially around young children. The parents obviously made a terrible mistake leaving the gun where they did.

Its an unfortunate, sad situation. But we should not be banning anything because a 4 year old cant use it properly.
You can't start early enough with the gun safety.

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