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Old 07-26-2013, 12:56 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 20,058,016 times
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because i think part of the problem in newark schools is the teachers. and i think millburn has, for the most part, very good teachers. it was just an example, and i have no way to prove it. and i don't think their graduation rates would skyrocket...but i believe good teachers matter and can help students overcome some disadvantages (like lower parental involvement).

just a hunch.
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:06 PM
 
Location: NJ
31,774 posts, read 36,453,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
because i think part of the problem in newark schools is the teachers. and i think millburn has, for the most part, very good teachers. it was just an example, and i have no way to prove it. and i don't think their graduation rates would skyrocket...but i believe good teachers matter and can help students overcome some disadvantages (like lower parental involvement).

just a hunch.
you probably dont know the answer to this; but i wonder what the hiring process and qualifications are for newark vs millburn and what kind of "talent" comes into the process. i guess if you imagine they have worse teachers; id guess you probably figure that since its a less desirable area, lower quality teachers are the only ones interested in working there.

i know a lady that was a teacher in paterson and i could see how teachers would get "worse" over time as a result over being disheartened by the lack of engagement of both the students and parents. but thats an issue that really stems from the students/parents not from the teachers being bad.
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:31 PM
 
357 posts, read 966,127 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyStarksNJ View Post
I'm an engineer. I work with a couple Cooper Union Graduates. If you arent aware, Cooper Union is a SMALL private school that picks the very best students in the city for engineering for free. These guys swear they are geniuses and look down at any other college. Guess what, WE ALL WORK AT THE SAME PLACE. We are all ENGINEERS. And I make more than a few of them.

So I ask, what's the end game imoapie?
Yes because your sample size of how many exactly makes the rule.
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:34 PM
 
64 posts, read 123,721 times
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I am in disagreement over the good vs bad teacher thing. Especially if we are comparing a great district to an average district. Maybe the schools in the really rough areas don't get the applicants, but the talent pool for Milburn is the exact same as for Morristown. The difference is the kids and the parents.
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:52 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 20,058,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ View Post
you probably dont know the answer to this; but i wonder what the hiring process and qualifications are for newark vs millburn and what kind of "talent" comes into the process. i guess if you imagine they have worse teachers; id guess you probably figure that since its a less desirable area, lower quality teachers are the only ones interested in working there.

i know a lady that was a teacher in paterson and i could see how teachers would get "worse" over time as a result over being disheartened by the lack of engagement of both the students and parents. but thats an issue that really stems from the students/parents not from the teachers being bad.
on the flip side, sometimes districts like newark go out of their way to hire better teachers to try to improve the school. i know a person who is working closely with Booker on the schools in Newark, so i could probably ask some questions if i cared. i know they've got some interesting programs in the works. i also did volunteer JSA days at newark schools, and met some pretty awesome teachers...but i only saw them in action a few days. I'm admittedly making assumptions about newark. It's unfair. I know people in Philly who are great teachers, but Philly schools are horrible.

you make a good point about the paterson lady and how teachers could get "worse" (i.e., stop caring). chicken or the egg, i guess.
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 20,058,016 times
Reputation: 3722
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyStarksNJ View Post
I'm an engineer. I work with a couple Cooper Union Graduates. If you arent aware, Cooper Union is a SMALL private school that picks the very best students in the city for engineering for free. These guys swear they are geniuses and look down at any other college. Guess what, WE ALL WORK AT THE SAME PLACE. We are all ENGINEERS. And I make more than a few of them.

So I ask, what's the end game imoapie?
i don't see how this proves your point. you work with a couple Cooper Union grads, do you work with any of your fellow alumni?
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:58 PM
 
Location: NJ
516 posts, read 889,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyStarksNJ View Post
The AP exams are the same! Again, you are bringing into the equation how the rest of the class does. how many kids take the class, is irrelevant. Why do I care if 25% or 50% or 10% take the exam? Again, all you are pointing out is the socio economic differences in a particular region.
I think you're missing my point. If 10% take the exam, then ~90% of the class did not feel they were taught enough to take it. If your kids are that gung-ho to be the valedictorian and be in that 10% that took it and got a 5, then great. However, the depth of knowledge and practice they may have from studying on their own vs. being taught at a "great AP teacher" level may not be the same. A single exam does not denote mastery of a subject that multiple tests over the course of a school year can fill in. College admissions acknowledge the effort of kids who try to stand out despite their environment, but also realize that some of those students have never competed against a class full of valedictorians day in and day out and may burn out.

I never mentioned socio economic differences. I didn't say that kids aren't taking the exam because they can't afford to, I'm saying they didn't because they thought wouldn't do well and wouldn't get the college credits/admission brownie points for it.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:01 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 20,058,016 times
Reputation: 3722
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisBlack View Post
I am in disagreement over the good vs bad teacher thing. Especially if we are comparing a great district to an average district. Maybe the schools in the really rough areas don't get the applicants, but the talent pool for Milburn is the exact same as for Morristown. The difference is the kids and the parents.
you're probably right about Millburn vs Morristown. But is that a "good" high school vs a "bad" highschool, which is the OP's topic title? I don't think so. This is evolving into another discussion about whether #1 is really better than #50.

when i interpret the title to be asking does #50 vs #275 "really matter"?

i would say yes it does.

does #15 vs #72 "really matter"? if you're an involved parent and your kid is bright, i sincerely doubt it.

are you in disagreement that a good teacher is more valuable than a bad one on the impact of your child? or are you just not believe that there's that much of a difference between teachers in millburn and camden? which is entirely possible, just not something i would assume to be true.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:03 PM
 
2,535 posts, read 6,171,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
you're probably right about millburn vs morristown. But is that a "good" high school vs a "bad" highschool, which is the op's topic title? I don't think so. This is evolving into another discussion about whether #1 is really better than #50.

When i interpret the title to be asking does #50 vs #275 "really matter"?

I would say yes it does.

Does #15 vs #72 "really matter"? If you're an involved parent and your kid is bright, i sincerely doubt it.

Are you in disagreement that a good teacher is more valuable than a bad one on the impact of your child? Or are you just not believe that there's that much of a difference between teachers in millburn and camden? Which is entirely possible, just not something i would assume to be true.
yup! exactly
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:07 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 20,058,016 times
Reputation: 3722
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsPiggleWiggle View Post
I think you're missing my point. If 10% take the exam, then ~90% of the class did not feel they were taught enough to take it. If your kids are that gung-ho to be the valedictorian and be in that 10% that took it and got a 5, then great. However, the depth of knowledge and practice they may have from studying on their own vs. being taught at a "great AP teacher" level may not be the same. A single exam does not denote mastery of a subject that multiple tests over the course of a school year can fill in. College admissions acknowledge the effort of kids who try to stand out despite their environment, but also realize that some of those students have never competed against a class full of valedictorians day in and day out and may burn out.

I never mentioned socio economic differences. I didn't say that kids aren't taking the exam because they can't afford to, I'm saying they didn't because they thought wouldn't do well and wouldn't get the college credits/admission brownie points for it.
i'm with you. guidance counselors at my school liked to point out to concerned sophomores and juniors that taking that extra AP course to the possible detriment of grades in all your courses (due to a tougher schedule) would still benefit you. and it didn't matter if we all took the AP exam and flunked it, having taken the AP courses stands out.

the more AP courses a school offers, the more opportunity you get.
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