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Old 11-19-2007, 05:19 AM
 
276 posts, read 1,460,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fischfan13 View Post
Ok, my 2 cents...
Why does anyone really have to worry about, or care about, another persons salary?
Ummm, because my tax dollars are paying for it.

While I agree teaching is a challenging and noble profession, I too I am a little sick and tired of hearing how hard it is and how little they get paid. And I don't think pouring more money into the schools or the teachers pockets is the answer. Most stats show that schools we pay most for, ie Newark and Camden, still are the lowest performers. Paying these teachers more isn't the answer, although one could argue they should get a certain stipend for "hazard pay".

Where I live, teachers get over two months off for the summer and have 1-2 additional PAID weeks off during the school year IN addition to Christmas Break, Winter Break (a full week around presidents day) and Spring break. Not to mention MLK, Columbus Day, Memorial Day, etc. I was told by a neighbor who is a teacher that teachers absolutely NEED those breaks, otherwise they couldn't do their job properly. That's a heck of alot of time off. If you can't do your job well unless you have all these breaks, perhaps you are in the wrong profession.

You cannot compare the average salary of a teacher with that of other professions, because they are not working a good part of the year. If you base you work hours on a full year, it's a part-time job. As far as taking work home, with very few exceptions, high paying professional jobs usually require this, it's not particular to teaching.

FWIW, I'm a pediatric ER nurse, and before I had kids I worked 12 hour shifts on my feet all day 3-4 days per week. I've been kicked, bit, and punched by the little cuties I take care of. And I love my job -I make a fair salary, not too much more than the starting teachers salary that's been discussed.
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:07 AM
 
Location: New Jersey/Florida
5,818 posts, read 12,641,491 times
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Kristin, Very well said. I thought I was the only person who had a different view on how hard the teaching profession is. "We" government workers should and must answer to the general public. They have alot of time off, as schools in NJ are required to have 180 days of schooling for the children. If I do my math correct that leaves a half of a year off. And yes as far as hrjersey she says she took a 50 percent pay cut to teach special Ed, my hat goes off to her. There aren't many people that take a hit like that. You are a dedicated worker. I'll stick with my saying that IMHO a person with a HARD job is the ditch digger and roofer and anyone out in these cold and hot enviroments(spelling) is bad. Now wait for the union people from the teachers union when they read this they will want to tar and feather me. One final thought, teachers, police and firemen jobs may not be for everyone but they are "NOT" the hardest jobs in the state. We have to remember if we don't like the job we can quit, Theres a list of people that would take them that numbers in the thousands.

Last edited by JERSEY MAN; 11-19-2007 at 06:11 AM.. Reason: spelling again
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,175 posts, read 12,951,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JERSEY MAN View Post
Kristin, Very well said. I thought I was the only person who had a different view on how hard the teaching profession is. <SNIP> We have to remember if we don't like the job we can quit, Theres a list of people that would take them that numbers in the thousands.
While I am sure that's true, and that there wouldn't be any real difficulty in putting warm bodies in those positions, do you really want just any warm body? Don't you agree that the best people for that job have other options available to them, and that if the salary is reduced, you will lose at least some of thoe people because they'll decide that they they need the dollars being offered somewhere else, whether that's another profession entirely or the same profession in a different place? So, while you are correct, you can fill the positions even if you reduce the starting salary, what you will end up with is a school system staffed by less than top quality teachers, who took the job because they weren't qualified to do the jobs that would net them the higher salary.
We have to stop thinking that the job is worth some amount of money because of the physical work required to perform it. Most jobs, not just teachers, are no longer about being paid for the physical labor one performs. If they were, you'd pay the kid who shovels your walk after a heavy snowfall more than you pay your kids surgeon for taking out his appendix when it bursts. We have to pay the best what it takes to make them want to stay and do the job, lest we suffer the consequences of not having the best.

And for the record, I don't think my school taxes are too low, and no, I don't think our school system is perfect. But the waste that's there is not in teachers salaries. It's in inflated administration, and poor management, and I'm sure a whole host of other issues. But let's not just attack the most important part of the whole system simply becasue it's the most visible.
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:28 AM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,736 posts, read 9,678,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
While I am sure that's true, and that there wouldn't be any real difficulty in putting warm bodies in those positions, do you really want just any warm body?
I haven't exactly been out of school *that* long... but a bunch a
"warm body" where a teacher should be standing is precisely what I remember. In fact, I've gone to my sister's school (she is 10yrs younger than me) on a number of occasions for just that.

Sure, there were a few good ones - some great, but I'll go from good on up. Out of 9 classes a day, I never had more than 3 worthwhile teachers.... some years, I had none. The rest were warm bodies, handing out a reading list, and then sitting at their desks the remainder of class. One even refused to answer questions, instead saying that it was in the book, and to look to classmates for help.

So does that sound like a $50k/yr employee to you?

No, of course not! Which is why she wasn't making $50k/yr, she was making $85k/yr!

Screw tenure. In my business, you keep with the times, you keep learning, you keep up to date - or you look for another job. Teachers should not be any different. If they slack off, if they stop caring, their job should be on the line. Sure, some teachers are well worth $50k. In fact, one of my favorites was making just over $95k, and I don't begrudge him that one bit - he earned it. He was a physics teacher, and he was incredibly knowledgeable, very active in teaching all the students, and keeping up to date with the latest. We didn't even necessarily get along in terms of perspective (I leaned towards different theories), but he was always open to debate, and listening and reacting to students.

You know how many teachers in my school were that good, through all four years of high school?

4.

$50k is a load of crap. Tenure is a load of crap. Set a nominal starting wage, a trial period if you will - $30k-ish. If the first year goes well, bump up $5k, and provide a bonus of a few thousand. Every year after, they should expect the same everyone else does - a nominal increase to fight inflation and take a few more bucks back home, and with every successful increase in status (ie: degree, awards, however you'd like to base it), thats a "promotion" - or a more significant increase in pay (10-15%). No tenure. Ever.

I don't care about what you make, as long as its worth it. A warm body is what we get now, and its simply not worth it.
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Orlando, FL
12,200 posts, read 18,392,969 times
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You know it always amuses me when people go on and on about how much teachers make.

No one ever complains about the pro football players who make millions of dollars, even though they repeatedly fail drug tests. Or the rappers who get paid thousands per show even though they are being tried for various crimes. Or the actors who get paid millions per movie even though they were just released from jail for DUI. Where do you think that money comes from? I'm not sure it works there, but here the stadium and arena are paid for by tax dollars.

I guess it's okay for people to be paid well as long as they're entertaining us.

This board is hilarious. One on day you're talking about "the best" schools. Everybody wants their kids to go to the best schools...but you only want to pay the teachers $30,000? I agree that teaching is not easy. I remember when I was failing economics, my teacher met me at the public lib. to tutor me so it wouldn't interfere with my after school schedule because he knew I was going to college on a band scholarship.

My band director's wife drove 3 hours to take me my college orientation because my mother couldn't get the time off from work. 3 years AFTER i graduted my yearbook advisor wrote me a personal letter of recommendation so I could get an internship with a magazine here. Of course I've had teachers who I could tell didn't care less, but I also had several that went above and beyond to help me succeed and I believe they are worth every penny they've ever earned and more.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,175 posts, read 12,951,265 times
Reputation: 4020
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
Screw tenure. In my business, you keep with the times, you keep learning, you keep up to date - or you look for another job. Teachers should not be any different. If they slack off, if they stop caring, their job should be on the line.
I don't care about what you make, as long as its worth it. A warm body is what we get now, and its simply not worth it.
Lest you, or anyone else, think I'm some sort of schill for the teachers union, let me clear that up.
I think tenure is as ridiculous as you think it is. I agree that teachers ought always to be held accountable. I think that raises ought to be merit based, not time based. Do the job and get paid, do it really well and get paid more, do it poorly or stop doing it and I'll find someone else to do it. And while I don't have any issue with paying teachers (or anyone else) a good wage for what they do, I certainly expect them to earn it. To work hard at what they do and to get results worthy of the compentsation. If I made it sound like I think all teachers are worth what they get paid, let me apologize. I recognize that there are some teachers not worth $20k a year. I don't want to keep them and pay them their $20k, though. I want to get rid of them and hire someone worth the $50k I have available. Some people want to keep the teachers & the system we have, so ling as we can save some money by doing it. I'd rather keep paying what we pay now and demand higher performance & better results.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Orlando, FL
12,200 posts, read 18,392,969 times
Reputation: 6655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
I think that raises ought to be merit based, not time based. Do the job and get paid, do it really well and get paid more, do it poorly or stop doing it and I'll find someone else to do it. And while I don't have any issue with paying teachers (or anyone else) a good wage for what they do, I certainly expect them to earn it. To work hard at what they do and to get results worthy of the compentsation.

I agree with this 100%.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:04 AM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,736 posts, read 9,678,742 times
Reputation: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by natalayjones View Post
You know it always amuses me when people go on and on about how much teachers make.

No one ever complains about the pro football players who make millions of dollars, even though they repeatedly fail drug tests. Or the rappers who get paid thousands per show even though they are being tried for various crimes. Or the actors who get paid millions per movie even though they were just released from jail for DUI. Where do you think that money comes from? I'm not sure it works there, but here the stadium and arena are paid for by tax dollars.
Taxes must be paid, entertainment dollars are a choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natalayjones View Post
I guess it's okay for people to be paid well as long as they're entertaining us.
If you're willing to pay for that entertainment... sure. I don't, personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natalayjones View Post
This board is hilarious. One on day you're talking about "the best" schools. Everybody wants their kids to go to the best schools...but you only want to pay the teachers $30,000?
No, we want teachers *worth* what they are being paid.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Orlando, FL
12,200 posts, read 18,392,969 times
Reputation: 6655
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
Taxes must be paid, entertainment dollars are a choice. If you're willing to pay for that entertainment... sure. I don't, personally.No, we want teachers *worth* what they are being paid.

I guess you enjoy missing the point of statements. We all pay for entertainment, doesn't matter if you want to or not. I've never been to a Orlando Magic game - you don't think my tax dollars went toward the maintaining and rebuilding of the arena? TD Waterhouse is building a parking garage - even if I never go to a concert there, won't I have to pay for that parking garage? But you never hear anyone say "hey why do we pay those NBA players so much"

And if you would read the posts before you reply you would see that I already said I agree teachers should be paid based on merit, so I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that *worth* comment was about.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:57 AM
 
Location: High Bridge
2,736 posts, read 9,678,742 times
Reputation: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by natalayjones View Post
I guess you enjoy missing the point of statements. We all pay for entertainment, doesn't matter if you want to or not. I've never been to a Orlando Magic game - you don't think my tax dollars went toward the maintaining and rebuilding of the arena? TD Waterhouse is building a parking garage - even if I never go to a concert there, won't I have to pay for that parking garage? But you never hear anyone say "hey why do we pay those NBA players so much"
And the arena generates tourism, which displaces the tax dollars put into it, hopefully turning to a profit (in terms of tax dollars) to lower your taxes. *EDIT* And if TD Waterhouse is building a parking garage - no, you don't pay for it in tax dollars. You pay for it if you park there. Because its not a municipal lot - its TD Waterhouse's lot.

NBA player salaries are paid by the teams, not by the government.

Big... big... big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natalayjones View Post
And if you would read the posts before you reply you would see that I already said I agree teachers should be paid based on merit, so I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that *worth* comment was about.
I replied to your previous post before your other post. But I still disagree with the one I quoted.
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