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Old 11-19-2007, 02:36 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
3,859 posts, read 9,983,536 times
Reputation: 3400

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
The PD wages, unless I'm mistaken, are similarly low starting salaries.
Not in New Jersey. My brother was just passed over during the latest round of hiring for the State Police. NJ State Troopers start at $53K per year which is way beyond what their counterparts (State Police, Highway Patrol, etc...) in other areas of the country make. When the NJ State Police announce that they are hiring for 250-300 positions they will frequently get 4-5,000 applications from all over the country.

Law enforcement jobs are extremely hard to get without an inside connection in New Jersey simply because they pay so well. With few exceptions most local police officers/sheriff's officers in New Jersey are very well compensated, as they should be. Again, the problem isn't with rank and file officer's salaries but rather with the fact that we have 500+ chiefs making over $100K, and that we have so much overlap of services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
And..... we're going to start teachers at double the lowest level, and about 20% higher than the upper level, to read from a book that costs 6 billion times too much because there was a new sentence since the previous year?
C'mon man I get it, you had some pretty rotten teachers in school, but you had to have a few good ones, and personally I only had one or two that truly weren't good teachers. I used to think that all of them were terrible, but when I finally grew up I realized that I was just a rotten kid. The cost of the book has nothing to do with the teacher. My fiancee doesn't just "read from books" either. She comes up with unique lesson plans that require kids to use higher order thinking skills (synthesis, analysis, evaluation) and challenge themselves.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:57 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
3,859 posts, read 9,983,536 times
Reputation: 3400
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin View Post
I know the salary itself is low, especially for those who are actually doing what the jobs require, but (and maybe its because you haven't dealt with it) your benefits are bar-none, incomparable, and by far surpassing anything in the private sector! I'm not even exaggerating in the slightest, you get ASTOUNDING benefits.
Are you referring to my benefits or hers? Though I work for the feds I have to pay for health, dental, vision, 401K, and I pay into a federal pension system/life insurance ($60K policy). That all adds up to about $315.00 per month that comes out of my check besides taxes. She pays a very small portion of her pension and voluntarily contributes to a 401K but that's it. I'd be curious to know what healthcare/dental premiums are for single folks in the private sector because as you said, we have nothing to compare it to. However, I don't want to argue about whether or not its fair. I still say the issue is that teacher salaries are not "fat" to be cut. Look at the bloated beauracracy that is the entire school system and you'll find plenty.

BTW, the land deal is still in the works-we're waiting for the engineer to come up with a final proposal for the land use board, but when all is said and done we should be looking at a 110' x 150' (about .38 acre) corner lot with public water, sewer, and gas. The water company (New Jersey American) is willing to open the road for free which is a big plus, but the sewer might require the installation of a new lateral (the sewer authority's engineers can't tell if there's one there or not), and I'm still waiting on PSE&G's estimate. Regardless, all of this pales in comparison to the cost of a new septic and well!
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Toms River, NJ
1,106 posts, read 4,899,841 times
Reputation: 656
OK, so you all have a lot of time during the day...I've been teaching all day, just got home and saw how active you have all been today. I can't hang around though because I have to go do a new set of report cards that the district gave me today that has to go home with the students by next week.

Just two more cents to add...as a teacher and a former private industry employee...I hate tenure almost as much as I hate union dues! In order for teachers to negotiate...along with all the other public employees out there, a very large chunk of my pay goes to union dues. This is more about what we can afford as tax payers...unfortunately I think the problem is much deeper than public employee salaries...however if I had the answer I'd run for office.
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Old 11-19-2007, 06:35 PM
 
276 posts, read 1,459,396 times
Reputation: 166
In terms of the "time off," I would say most professionals get a decent amount of vacation, paid holidays, etc... My DH gets 6 weeks of paid vacation, 10-12 holidays, and comp time out the wazoo, and he works for a Big Four accounting firm. If he'd only use it.

I think if the time off was that desirable, everybody and their brother would be signing up to become a teacher.[/quote]

I assure you, getting 6 weeks of of paid leave in addition to paid holidays off is NOT the NORM in the United states. Europe, yes. My DH and I both have our masters degrees, and the most we've ever gotten is 3 weeks. And I hear you on actually taking the time My husband never takes over 2 weeks, no matter how much I beg!

I've had some fabulous teachers, and it's a shame that all teachers get lumped into the characterization of lazy, money-grubbing, have to have their summers off type people. I think unions are largely to blame for this.

But I stand by my point: Over 50 K per year for a 22 yo kid right out of college who gets at least 12 weeks off a year is ridiculous, and I don't want to see my tax dollars go to that.
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:00 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
3,859 posts, read 9,983,536 times
Reputation: 3400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kristin1 View Post
But I stand by my point: Over 50 K per year for a 22 yo kid right out of college who gets at least 12 weeks off a year is ridiculous, and I don't want to see my tax dollars go to that.
So one's compensation should hinge on their age, vacation time, and amount years out of school? Not on the job they do, the cost of living in the area in which they live, etc...? So what is a suitable salary for such a person? $30K? $20K? What if the person is 40 years old and changing careers? It actually happens quite a bit in this state which is why we have what is called "alternate route" which enables folks with non-education degrees and life experience in fields such as science and mathematics to become teachers in less time. This is where many of our math and science teachers come from now since those "22 year old kids just out of college" are skipping the classroom if they can do calculus.

A good friend of mine is a pharmacist and was making $90K her first year out of school (she was 23)-granted your tax dollars aren't paying for it, but is that ridiculous?
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:53 PM
 
Location: NJ
12,283 posts, read 35,702,762 times
Reputation: 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by kristin1 View Post
I assure you, getting 6 weeks of of paid leave in addition to paid holidays off is NOT the NORM in the United states. Europe, yes. My DH and I both have our masters degrees, and the most we've ever gotten is 3 weeks. And I hear you on actually taking the time My husband never takes over 2 weeks, no matter how much I beg!

I've had some fabulous teachers, and it's a shame that all teachers get lumped into the characterization of lazy, money-grubbing, have to have their summers off type people. I think unions are largely to blame for this.

But I stand by my point: Over 50 K per year for a 22 yo kid right out of college who gets at least 12 weeks off a year is ridiculous, and I don't want to see my tax dollars go to that.

my ancedotal experience: before I left my last job - I had very close to what juliann's dh did. add to that unlimited sick days and it really was quite nice. this is in the private sector, and i don't have a master's degree. maybe you aren't working for the right companies.

i'm scared to tell you what i made right out of college 100,000 years ago, lest i incur the wrath of someone telling me i wasn't worth it.

to echo badfish - would 50K be ok for a 45 year old looking to change careers? or is it only not ok if you're fresh out of college? what if the 22 year old is married and has children? maybe we need to look at every potential teacher's situation and decide then, based on lifestyle and age if he/she is deserving.
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Old 11-19-2007, 07:56 PM
 
Location: NJ
12,283 posts, read 35,702,762 times
Reputation: 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badfish740 View Post
So one's compensation should hinge on their age, vacation time, and amount years out of school? Not on the job they do, the cost of living in the area in which they live, etc...? So what is a suitable salary for such a person? $30K? $20K? What if the person is 40 years old and changing careers? It actually happens quite a bit in this state which is why we have what is called "alternate route" which enables folks with non-education degrees and life experience in fields such as science and mathematics to become teachers in less time. This is where many of our math and science teachers come from now since those "22 year old kids just out of college" are skipping the classroom if they can do calculus.

A good friend of mine is a pharmacist and was making $90K her first year out of school (she was 23)-granted your tax dollars aren't paying for it, but is that ridiculous?
well, not our tax dollars, but insurance premiums and copays certainly are to some extent (so maybe "pre tax dollars", lol). why can't we rag on pharm companies instead?
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:49 PM
 
276 posts, read 1,459,396 times
Reputation: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badfish740 View Post
So one's compensation should hinge on their age, vacation time, and amount years out of school? Not on the job they do, the cost of living in the area in which they live, etc...? So what is a suitable salary for such a person? $30K? $20K? What if the person is 40 years old and changing careers? It actually happens quite a bit in this state which is why we have what is called "alternate route" which enables folks with non-education degrees and life experience in fields such as science and mathematics to become teachers in less time. This is where many of our math and science teachers come from now since those "22 year old kids just out of college" are skipping the classroom if they can do calculus.

A good friend of mine is a pharmacist and was making $90K her first year out of school (she was 23)-granted your tax dollars aren't paying for it, but is that ridiculous?
No, one's compensation should be based on their EXPERIENCE, ACTUAL TIME WORKED, and EDUCATION.

I do believe teachers that have had a career and chose the "alternate route" as you call it, should definitely be given a higher salary than a newbie. They have so much more to offer in terms of life experience.

Also, a pharmacist is a DOCTOR of Pharmacy. You cannot be a pharmacist right out of college. They do offer 6 year programs that combine a BS with a Doctor of Pharmacy, and it is a very intense and rigorous program. And also very selective. You can't possibly compare a pharmacist to a teacher. And I'm also going to bet that the pharmacist you speak of doesn't have 12 weeks off each year.

Tahiti - No one I know gets paid according to their life circumstance, ie children, married. This is never a factor in salary for any job I've ever heard of - maybe if your collecting welfare, but that's about it.

Last edited by kristin1; 11-19-2007 at 09:50 PM.. Reason: sp
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:00 PM
 
Location: High Bridge, NJ
3,859 posts, read 9,983,536 times
Reputation: 3400
Quote:
Originally Posted by kristin1 View Post
Also, a pharmacist is a DOCTOR of Pharmacy. You cannot be a pharmacist right out of college. They do offer 6 year programs that combine a BS with a Doctor of Pharmacy, and it is a very intense and rigorous program. And also very selective. You can't possibly compare a pharmacist to a teacher. And I'm also going to bet that the pharmacist you speak of doesn't have 12 weeks off each year.
You are correct about the length of time, which is a mere technicality. The friend in question attended Rutgers Pharmacy and graduated in six years. Now to respond to the second part. Are you implying that education programs are not intense, rigorous, or selective? I beg to differ. It never fails to amaze me how people belittle the profession of teaching. Teachers are the people who facilitate the very development of those who will carry on the future of the country. That's not important enough to justify a decent salary? Would you be willing to quit your job and homeschool your child? If not, why not?
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Jersey Shore
828 posts, read 3,139,186 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Would you be willing to quit your job and homeschool your child? If not, why not?

<dripping with sarcasm>
You mean that people should actually pay taxes and teach their children themselves?
What's next? Locks on our front doors because the local police dept doesn't have a cop at every front door in town?

I am wondering...
How many of those who are complaining about teachers salaries have school age children?
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