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Old 12-03-2013, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Savannah GA/Lk Hopatcong NJ
13,183 posts, read 26,912,985 times
Reputation: 11395

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What are your feelings on this?? I do not think that piece of paper is going to make a good care giver any better.
I would assume that means in 10 years there will no longer be 2 year community college associate degree or 3 year hospital school of nursing ( if they even still exist) around. Nursing shortage in the future?? Just when the baby boomers aging will be at a peak.

Many nurses have used the above as a way to a fast career and imo some of the best nurses out there came from the hospital schools of nursing..intense hands on, I think those programs also amounted to plenty of free personnel for hospitals but boy did they ever learn.

No I am not a nurse just my opinion.

New rules require veteran nurses to go back to college as RN-BSN programs flourish | NJ.com
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:16 AM
 
Location: NJ
19,993 posts, read 14,379,322 times
Reputation: 14171
Again, pure politics to grease the state's universities which lose about 60% of hi schools students to out of state colleges.

These expensive teacher mills require a steady flow and if illegal immigrants don't suffice, now nurses will be used as fodder.

There has alwys been LPN vs RN class warfare and now throw in a BSN.

As doctors are becoming few and far between due to obamacare, someone has to step up and have documented credibility to replace doctors.

An insurance card for everyone does nothing to guarantee healthcare, let alone quality healthcare from a doctor with whom you have developed a relationship. going to a new healhtcare provider every visit or being forced to be treated by someone you don't get along with, will negatively impact patient healthcare and is, 'triage', not quality medical care.

A BSN provides a more rounded edu but in no way guarantees a quality healtcare provider, just as medical school grads who passed boards are not equal in ability or qualifications. Many end up in the pharmaceutical industry thankfully without patient contact. How many nurses will have the money, incentive or time to trek to college. Next bet will be taxpayers subsidizing the BSNs. Anything to payback the edu juggernaught for their democratic support.

A BSN might be nice to have but this proposal is pure politics and continues the legacy of feel good laws that legislators are so adept at providing to an unthinking electorate.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:18 AM
 
17,538 posts, read 21,674,834 times
Reputation: 22921
In the healthcare field, almost every job description has had an increase in the degree requirements over the years, so...why not extend this increased educational requirement to nurses?

For example, over the past 15 years or so, pharmacy programs have all become doctoral programs.
Over about a 20 year period, those who want to become physical therapists have had their degree requirements increased from B.S., to M.S., and--most recently--to a doctoral requirement.

Yes, the old 3 year hospital-based programs provided the most hands-on experience for their students (as well as providing a lot of free or low-cost staffing for the hospital ), but as the level of knowledge necessary for nurses increases, I suppose that the need for additional education is a reality.

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Old 12-03-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Savannah GA/Lk Hopatcong NJ
13,183 posts, read 26,912,985 times
Reputation: 11395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retriever View Post
In the healthcare field, almost every job description has had an increase in the degree requirements over the years, so...why not extend this increased educational requirement to nurses?

For example, over the past 15 years or so, pharmacy programs have all become doctoral programs.
Over about a 20 year period, those who want to become physical therapists have had their degree requirements increased from B.S., to M.S., and--most recently--to a doctoral requirement.

Yes, the old 3 year hospital-based programs provided the most hands-on experience for their students (as well as providing a lot of free or low-cost staffing for the hospital ), but as the level of knowledge necessary for nurses increases, I suppose that the need for additional education is a reality.

Only issue is most of those additional 60 credits you need for the BSN have little to nothing to do about nursing...I think if you want to teach nursing or advance to a supervisory role the BSN should be required but for the foot soldiers giving the hands on care I think it's pointless.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:04 AM
 
37,985 posts, read 25,899,132 times
Reputation: 63129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retriever View Post
In the healthcare field, almost every job description has had an increase in the degree requirements over the years, so...why not extend this increased educational requirement to nurses?

For example, over the past 15 years or so, pharmacy programs have all become doctoral programs.
Over about a 20 year period, those who want to become physical therapists have had their degree requirements increased from B.S., to M.S., and--most recently--to a doctoral requirement.

Yes, the old 3 year hospital-based programs provided the most hands-on experience for their students (as well as providing a lot of free or low-cost staffing for the hospital ), but as the level of knowledge necessary for nurses increases, I suppose that the need for additional education is a reality.

Exactly, this is very common in health care. It's not about greasing Universities, it's about competing for health care dollars by increasing the prestige of the title and the respect it gets from politicians and payers, as well to ensure higher competence. When the government or insurance companies are setting a reimbursement rate for an RN home visit, higher credentials can translate into increased reimbursement rates down the road, as well as the ability to increase their share of the pie as highly educated nurse's are allowed to do more and more of the tasks physician's now do. This is how a profession ensures it's viability into the future.

I was grandfathered in with a BS in occupational therapy, but now it requires a Masters. P.T., which required a Masters when I was in school, but before that was a BS, now requires a Doctorate. My bff is a pharmacist who graduated from a 5 year program, but now it's a PharmD and about 7 years. I'm sure if you go back far enough, the requirements to be a doctor were much less than they are now, too. Professions evolve or die, just like everything else.

Last edited by ocnjgirl; 12-03-2013 at 11:14 AM..
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:04 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 20,203,574 times
Reputation: 3722
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkate View Post
What are your feelings on this?? I do not think that piece of paper is going to make a good care giver any better.
I would assume that means in 10 years there will no longer be 2 year community college associate degree or 3 year hospital school of nursing ( if they even still exist) around. Nursing shortage in the future?? Just when the baby boomers aging will be at a peak.

Many nurses have used the above as a way to a fast career and imo some of the best nurses out there came from the hospital schools of nursing..intense hands on, I think those programs also amounted to plenty of free personnel for hospitals but boy did they ever learn.

No I am not a nurse just my opinion.

New rules require veteran nurses to go back to college as RN-BSN programs flourish | NJ.com
I'm not sure I see the point of making existing RNs go back. I can see making new RNs go through the new process. We'll see how this hashes out.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:17 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 20,203,574 times
Reputation: 3722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracer View Post
Again, pure politics to grease the state's universities which lose about 60% of hi schools students to out of state colleges.

These expensive teacher mills require a steady flow and if illegal immigrants don't suffice, now nurses will be used as fodder.

There has alwys been LPN vs RN class warfare and now throw in a BSN.

As doctors are becoming few and far between due to obamacare, someone has to step up and have documented credibility to replace doctors.

An insurance card for everyone does nothing to guarantee healthcare, let alone quality healthcare from a doctor with whom you have developed a relationship. going to a new healhtcare provider every visit or being forced to be treated by someone you don't get along with, will negatively impact patient healthcare and is, 'triage', not quality medical care.

A BSN provides a more rounded edu but in no way guarantees a quality healtcare provider, just as medical school grads who passed boards are not equal in ability or qualifications. Many end up in the pharmaceutical industry thankfully without patient contact. How many nurses will have the money, incentive or time to trek to college. Next bet will be taxpayers subsidizing the BSNs. Anything to payback the edu juggernaught for their democratic support.

A BSN might be nice to have but this proposal is pure politics and continues the legacy of feel good laws that legislators are so adept at providing to an unthinking electorate.
i love how you throw in that doctors are becoming few and far between because of Obamacare....which hasn't even taken effect yet to make such a statement. Doctor #s have been decreasing in areas like NJ for years.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:54 PM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,546 posts, read 20,203,574 times
Reputation: 3722
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
Exactly, this is very common in health care. It's not about greasing Universities, it's about competing for health care dollars by increasing the prestige of the title and the respect it gets from politicians and payers, as well to ensure higher competence. When the government or insurance companies are setting a reimbursement rate for an RN home visit, higher credentials can translate into increased reimbursement rates down the road, as well as the ability to increase their share of the pie as highly educated nurse's are allowed to do more and more of the tasks physician's now do. This is how a profession ensures it's viability into the future.

I was grandfathered in with a BS in occupational therapy, but now it requires a Masters. P.T., which required a Masters when I was in school, but before that was a BS, now requires a Doctorate. My bff is a pharmacist who graduated from a 5 year program, but now it's a PharmD and about 7 years. I'm sure if you go back far enough, the requirements to be a doctor were much less than they are now, too. Professions evolve or die, just like everything else.
Pharm D program is 6 years, with the 6th year being clinical rotations.
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:31 PM
 
17,538 posts, read 21,674,834 times
Reputation: 22921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracer View Post
Again, pure politics to grease the state's universities which lose about 60% of hi schools students to out of state colleges.

These expensive teacher mills require a steady flow and if illegal immigrants don't suffice, now nurses will be used as fodder.

A BSN might be nice to have but this proposal is pure politics and continues the legacy of feel good laws that legislators are so adept at providing to an unthinking electorate.
Seventy or so years ago, aluminum foil was surely not a common commodity, but I wonder if folks of a similar ilk were donning their aluminum foil hats over the notion of enacting actual educational standards and licensing for MDs.

You would probably find it very instructive to read Charlatan, by Pope Brock, which is the story of the rise and fall of John R. Brinkley, MD, who had...little training...and even less surgical expertise, but was able to become obscenely rich by performing a, "special", surgical procedure on unsophisticated men who paid him royally for the hokum that he marketed to them. He was able to get away with this behavior for a few decades, simply because of the extremely loose, virtually non-existent, standards for medical education at the time.

None of what he did would have been possible if there had been uniform educational standards for MDs. The bottom line is that, just because you don't agree with more stringent educational requirements, this does not automatically mean that it is some kind of insidious conspiracy to loot your wallet or to commit dastardly deeds against the common man.

Seriously...read that book!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
Exactly, this is very common in health care. It's not about greasing Universities, it's about competing for health care dollars by increasing the prestige of the title and the respect it gets from politicians and payers, as well to ensure higher competence. When the government or insurance companies are setting a reimbursement rate for an RN home visit, higher credentials can translate into increased reimbursement rates down the road, as well as the ability to increase their share of the pie as highly educated nurse's are allowed to do more and more of the tasks physician's now do. This is how a profession ensures it's viability into the future.

I was grandfathered in with a BS in occupational therapy, but now it requires a Masters. P.T., which required a Masters when I was in school, but before that was a BS, now requires a Doctorate. My bff is a pharmacist who graduated from a 5 year program, but now it's a PharmD and about 7 years. I'm sure if you go back far enough, the requirements to be a doctor were much less than they are now, too. Professions evolve or die, just like everything else.
Yup!
I highly recommend the book that I referenced above.
Most folks would be shocked to learn about the almost total lack of educational standards for MDs as recently as the mid-1930s.

Did the opponents of vastly increased education + licensing for MDs consider these requirements to be a conspiracy?


Last edited by Retriever; 12-03-2013 at 04:52 PM..
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Old 12-03-2013, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Jersey
2,795 posts, read 3,884,283 times
Reputation: 2600
^ I don't see how educational standards affected the scenario of "Dr." Brinkley at all. I'd say it was due to the lack/failure of legal over-site. Having education credentials doesn't mean one will behave ethically and practice sound medicine.
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