Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
MB, try not to take things so personally; I'm now noticing that the more you let these materialistic, self-centered people get to you, the more they thrive off of some sort of "knock others when they're down" sense of humor. I'm sorry that you thought I was condascending for, essentially, not understanding how someone earning $150,000 couldn't feed their children or heat their homes and being bashed because of it, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and stick up for you, no matter how many more red dots these snobs give me for questioning how many of these "strugglers" go out to eat, go to the movies, etc. or do anything else that's a "luxury" in life. "Struggling" means that you can't afford your physiological needs; it does not mean that you're failing to have what everyone else in your neighborhood has. Why people in NJ don't get that is beyond me! I had someone PM me and say "Those $299,900 homes in Hopatcong are fine, but beneath those on the forum." I couldn't agree more, as I can recall someone saying that it's impossible to find something decent in NJ for under $500,000---It all goes back to what one would describe as "liveable."
Yeah, that was a little heavy-handed of me, too, and I apologize for that. I don't agree with some of your takes, but I am impressed that you have done all the research that you've done as far as these things are concerned. I have nieces who are around your age (give or take), and I don't think any of them have much of a clue as to what costs what around here, never mind anywhere else. I think that what you'll realize over time is that there are a lot of variables that determine whether or not living in a certain area is worth it, and those variables even change from person to person. But in a state like NJ, it's pretty simple- if you weren't already in the market before 2000 or so, it's tough to get in now. If you got out, but want back in, it's still really tough. And no matter when you got into the market, with taxes going up like they are, that's money that's coming from your IRA, your kid's college fund, or whatever, that's basically being taken from you by the state... and for what? To feed the bottomless pit that is the New Jersey government.
For me, like I've said- I COULD make it here if that's what I wanted. But, all things considered, I don't think it's worth it. I don't care about money all that much, but I know there's other places where I would be able to do what I'm doing now and still have my own home and live in an area that's a little more socially stimulating. I've never lived anywhere else, and I've always wanted to, but life always seemed to get in the way. Now I am free to go, and I'm going to.
I just hate seeing people being painted with broad brushes. Do some people in NJ live to consume? Absolutely. A lot of them, in fact. I don't think that a lot of the people on this board and on this thread are like that, though. People who are caught up in that materialistic lifestyle aren't thinking about leaving NJ, because if they did, they wouldn't be able to impress their "friends" anymore, right? I think most of the people on this board are pretty regular guys and gals who just don't want to have to work harder and harder every year just to keep what they already have.
By the way, I have a Masters degree, but it's in teaching, which I don't even do anymore
I just don't agree with materialism in any sense of the word; just remember that when you pass away, God isn't going to be there on Judgment Day congratulating you for having one more plasma TV than the guy next-door or a better-looking Bonsai garden on your office desk than the woman in the next office. Even if we were to look at things from a non-religious point of view, you're not going to have any use for a BMW when you're "pushing up daisies six-feet under." For me, I want to leave a legacy behind of helping others; my ultimate dream is to buy fixer-uppers in Scranton, rehab them into liveable family homes, and then sell them to needy families for $1 so that they can experience the joys of being able to live in and afford their own middle-class American dream. Now, I'll probably be earning $60,000 around age 40, and with my frugal lifestyle and Scranton's low cost-of-living ratio, this type of scenario would be quite possible for me. I'm not legally allowed to wed in this "closet red" state, so a family is out of the picture for me. As such, that $60,000 NET (I'm assuming a higher gross income as a senior accountant for a major firm with almost 20 years of experience), will be free for me to use however I wish.
All I'm saying is that NJ (and I suppose America), as a whole, is so concerned with self and so apathetic towards others that it's no wonder why we have so many problems in our nation! I couldn't imagine walking by someone in plight and just turning my head the other way; I saw many suit-and-tie clad corporate executives in Manhattan (probably many hailing from apparent "poverty-ravaged" NJ) walking by people begging in tattered clothing for any sort of help. I gave $2 to each person I walked by who looked to be in distress. If I could afford to help these people while only earning $9/hr., then why couldn't those uppper-class executives afford at least $2 as well? We're becoming a society of "screw the other guy if it gets me ahead", and the rudeness, hostility, and negative reputation this thread has garnered me from some people now has my blood boiling with rage. (And I'm generally an amicable, relaxed, spiritual person).
I. True "economic struggling": Not being able to afford one's own physiological needs, such as food, clothing, shelter, and medical attention.
II. Pereceived "economic struggling": Being able to afford one's physiological needs, but being unable to keep pace with the perceived successes of one's peers.
According to the U.S. Census, 8.9% of all NJ residents lived below the poverty line in 2003. These 8.9% are the ones who should be "struggling" based upon definition I. Definition II should account for 91.1% of the state. I'm assuming since you all have internet access, that you're all in that 91.1% category of those who "perceive" themselves to be struggling economically, when, in fact, they are not. If some of you can be earning $150,000 and truly"struggling", then does this mean that the 8.9% of the population in poverty earns $150,000 or less and the 91.1% not in poverty are earning more than $150,000? Your median household income, $56,356, is also the highest in the nation. If 50% of all households in NJ earn less than $56,356, and if only 8.9% of those are living in poverty, then how can the other 41.1%of those earning less than $56,356 not truly be struggling while some earning $150,000 are? I'm still just not understanding this from an economic standpoint. To me, it seems more like a case of people refusing to live within their means. If your income dictates that you should live in a 600 square-foot, 2-bedroom condo in Hackensack as opposed to a 4-bedroom home on a cul-de-sac in Sparta, then don't choose the home in Sparta and then expect sympathy. If you want the home in Sparta, then pick up a second job, don't have children, reduce your expenses, etc. until your income rises to the point where that Sparta home is in your realistic budget range. Why is it that the other 49 states have people who have adapted to rising cost-of-living ratios while those in NJ can't adjust their lifestyles to reflect a similar decline in their "real" incomes?
Last edited by SteelCityRising; 12-09-2006 at 08:26 PM..
Reason: Typo
NJmomof2 - I was more or less speaking about NickL28 - who is saying he lives paycheck to paycheck but he shops at GAP, Banana Republic, Nordstrom & JCREW only once or twice a month. If you are having a hard time don't shop at these stores. I believe struggling is you are short on food, can't pay a bill - not missing a shopping trip to the Gap.
I understand everyone's life is different but he has said in other posts you need to make at least $200,000 per year to live in NJ - Out of my family and friends I don't know anyone that makes that and they all live in NJ.
Exactly. Bravo! You took my verbose, boring, long-winded economic terminologies and synthesized them into a brief yet poignant two paragraphs! I applaud you for that; I wish I could master the skill of "getting to the point." LOL! Once again, this brings in that concept of somebody truly struggling and someone who perceives themselves as struggling. If you are truly struggling, then the first thing on your mind should be "how will I afford to put food on the table tomorrow night when I just had our furnace serviced?" If you perceive yourself to be struggling, then having to forgo a trip to Banana Republic or skipping a romantic night out on the town with your spouse to save a bit for a rainy day seems more logical. I don't think anybody in this thread wakes up in the morning cold, or hungry, or without clothing to wear, or without sufficient access to medical care, etc. I think it's more a case of "Everyone from my college graduating class has an Audi, and I'm still driving a Passat. Why is life such a struggle?" If he/she was truly struggling, then the first thought to pop into his/her head would be how will I get to work when I can't afford the monthly insurance payments to purchase a reliable vehicle?
If you have to forgo a trip to the Gap, have to buy one less Christmas gift this year, or have to take one less trip per week to Starbucks in the morning for that $3 cup of java, then so be it---Nobody cares! In no way, shape, or form is your quality-of-life being compromised by skipping coffee, not eating out at restaurants, or making sure that the pile of gifts for our children underneath the Christmas tree exceeds an area of twenty square feet. People in this situation are not struggling! We've become a nation that "expects" non-essential luxury items such as coffee, restaurant meals, shopping trips for a new pair of shoes to match a corresponding new purse, a trip to Lowe's to buy a designer towel-rack, etc. Then, when you have to cut back on those, it's suddenly "Woe is me! I'm struggling!" Hardly! Come back on this thread and say "I'm struggling" when you're among the 8.9% in your fair state that has to choose between food and medicine---not between GAP or Wal-Mart.
I'm still just not understanding this from an economic standpoint. To me, it seems more like a case of people refusing to live within their means. If your income dictates that you should live in a 600 square-foot, 2-bedroom condo in Hackensack as opposed to a 4-bedroom home on a cul-de-sac in Sparta, then don't choose the home in Sparta and then expect sympathy. If you want the home in Sparta, then pick up a second job, don't have children, reduce your expenses, etc. until your income rises to the point where that Sparta home is in your realistic budget range. Why is it that the other 49 states have people who have adapted to rising cost-of-living ratios while those in NJ can't adjust their lifestyles to reflect a similar decline in their "real" incomes?
Yes - $150,000 is a lot of money - a whole lot. What you fail to understand is that $150,000 does not get you far in some parts of NJ, especially if you need to be close to NYC. In my mind, if someone is making $150,000 they should be able to comfortably afford a 4 bedroom house. The problem is, that salary won't get you a 4 BR home in NJ - you might be able to afford a 3 BR fixer depending on yoru down payment. The average home in my town goes for around $700,000 - that's the AVERAGE. Some town like Summit have AVERAGE prices around $1 million - again an AVERAGE. Making $150,000 takes hard work and long hours. Tell someone putting in those hours with a family that they should suck it up and move to bumble-wood Hoptacong or Sparta. If you do, I suggest you run away real fast. There should be a return on that effort, the problem is that you get very little return in NJ. Anywhere else $150,000 gets you real far - no question.
I understand the issue but that is not why people are coming to this board. The Scranton area is very different than NYC/burbs and although I do not understand the yuppie value system myself- comments like "forgot to put the condom on" and "49 other states have people who have adapted" are not appropriate here. I grew up in N.J.- can not afford to live there now and can not really afford where I live now. (southern California) However, I am single and do not have children and I am creative with my living situation. Back in the early 1980's I was a high school student living in a rented apartment with my mom in N.J. We had lived out of state for several years and had moved back. It was definitely a struggle and though I did not understand then-I do now. My Mom definitely made less than 30,000 a year. We lived in an area with good schools that was not zoned for rental properties. It was a frustrating time. We did not have much of anything materially but the town was not wealthy back then so it was not a huge deal. We kept hearing that we should not live in a community that was on the train line as this was why the cost of living was so high. Today I actually appreciate the sacrifice that was made for me. My parent struggled so that I could remain in a good school system. At the time I did not appreciate this or really understand. NY/NJ area is not particularly family friendly in my opinion. The cost of living too high and in many areas the public schools not so good. Also the state university system in one of the most expensive in the nation. From a kid's point of view- I think that there were advantages I had growing up there that I did not appreciate till I had moved away. From my parent's point of view- it was a different story. She made the sacrifices and does not look back at that time with any fondness. Yes the yuppie mentality sucks but that is not the issue for most people posting here. I grew up watching the western part of my county go from rural to suburb-later that happen with much of western NJ and Bucks County-now it is spreading even farther out into PA. This is unfortunate but inevitable. The stress of living with a family in urban America is mounting every day. I wish there were laws to prevent sprawl but greed always wins in the end. I am very anti long commutes and a big advocate for public transit. It is hard for me to fathom a 2 plus hour commute especially if one is a parent. I was an NYC resident for 14 years- living in fringe(read-low income) neighborhoods for the most part but without kids you have many more options. I have encountered many people with the same concerns as those on this board over the years. They are not exaggerating for the most part. I can look at the situation in NY/NJ from more than one angle now. I am sure that there are certain areas of PA that draw mostly yuppies but there are other areas that are more popular with the middle/working class folks. And to the parents in N.J. that are truly struggling to give their kids a decent education/quality of life- I salute you. It would be much easier to do elsewhere.- Former NJ kid
NJmomof2 - I was more or less speaking about NickL28 - who is saying he lives paycheck to paycheck but he shops at GAP, Banana Republic, Nordstrom & JCREW only once or twice a month. If you are having a hard time don't shop at these stores. I believe struggling is you are short on food, can't pay a bill - not missing a shopping trip to the Gap.
I understand everyone's life is different but he has said in other posts you need to make at least $200,000 per year to live in NJ - Out of my family and friends I don't know anyone that makes that and they all live in NJ.
I wasnt responding directly at your comment sorry if it seemed that way...
I hear ya, I agree with you too on that point and well the majority of people I know dont make that much money they do however 150k and less BEFORE TAXES..and when your in that tax bracket you loose 1/2 your salary so either way for most people here and I am a REALTOR here as well, and alot of my clients who do well for themselves it becomes a Mortgage issue and property tax issue ...Our car insurance is outrageous here and so is health care so combined that with one takes home and it isnt EASY for some people... I am so tired though of people judging people's lives when they have no clue to who the person is or what they do for a living....Because people struggle in other ways. I struggle in many ways to pay my property taxes, but it doesnt mean that I should be judged. But fact remains PEOPLE ARE busting thier butts just to pay bills and it is sad because it then becomes a quality of life issue, my hubby commutes 2 hours 1 WAY and that is no way to live. We sacrifced living closer because we couldnt afford north jersey so we came here and instead my cost of living went through the roof. so paying 10k a year and climbing once we are reassesed, for schools that are now over crowded and for an area that was once considering trashy I have to say it is very desirable now and still up and coming...Unfortnatley the real estate market is awful....so with that once again I do appoligize if you thought I was directing it at you.....
Yes - $150,000 is a lot of money - a whole lot. What you fail to understand is that $150,000 does not get you far in some parts of NJ, especially if you need to be close to NYC. In my mind, if someone is making $150,000 they should be able to comfortably afford a 4 bedroom house. The problem is, that salary won't get you a 4 BR home in NJ - you might be able to afford a 3 BR fixer depending on yoru down payment. The average home in my town goes for around $700,000 - that's the AVERAGE. Some town like Summit have AVERAGE prices around $1 million - again an AVERAGE. Making $150,000 takes hard work and long hours. Tell someone putting in those hours with a family that they should suck it up and move to bumble-wood Hoptacong or Sparta. If you do, I suggest you run away real fast. There should be a return on that effort, the problem is that you get very little return in NJ. Anywhere else $150,000 gets you real far - no question.
Royc, very nicely put, that is exactly what im getting at!!!!
Njmom: i find it extremely unconvincing that you are struggling to get by with your purported low debt / income ratio. assuming you 2 make 200,000 flat, thats at least 160+ take home net. a **** good salary between the both of you. you pay 2000 / month in nanny's fees, which is way over the market by the way (we pay 900 for a live-in). even if your home mortgage is 5000 / month, which may be with the property tax addition, how in the world cant you afford it?
you 2 must be living the high road. i simply reasonably and convincingly cannot see, based on what you reported as your expenses, how in the world you 2 are struggling. it simply makes zero sense.
unless you are rolling automatically to a 401k, or stock, or something.
even if your expenses are 7000 a month, on the high side, you still got a good chunk of change remaining. please enlighten me...what am i missing? :>
Wow...talk about opinionated and condescending!!
Why don't you actually read all of my posts. I have repeatedly said that I am nowhere near the poor house and live quite frugally. I am not "living the high road" as you incorrectly assume. However, I simply stated that I think this state is ridiculously overpriced and the soaring property taxes are getting out of control...making it harder and harder on the middle class.
And, by the way, a family earning close to 200K does not NET nearly $160K unless they are seriously underreporting and evading taxes! Ever hear of AMT???
It's your post that makes zero sense.
Why don't you actually read all of my posts. I have repeatedly said that I am nowhere near the poor house and live quite frugally. I am not "living the high road" as you incorrectly assume. However, I simply stated that I think this state is ridiculously overpriced and the soaring property taxes are getting out of control...making it harder and harder on the middle class.
And, by the way, a family earning close to 200K does not NET nearly $160K unless they are seriously underreporting and evading taxes! Ever hear of AMT???
It's your post that makes zero sense.
I didn't mean to come across as consdescending, but the thing is, I still fail to see how you struggle--or for that matter--anyone in this state making 200k. 200k gross does equal 150k-160k net, give or take some thousands, based on write-offs + ira's.
which means, 12k per month, disposable. and if your expenses are even 8k, where in the world does the 4k go? I stated in an earlier post that my expenses are jacked through the roof, and thats where my $$ goes (to student loans, primarily).
Since it seems that most on this post think 150-200k is unreasonable in nj, i really would like someone to break down their monthly totals, estimated on the high end. I'm paying 12k in student loans per month, deliberately, to wipe it out. 300k total owed. 1500k per month in car payments, 200 per month in car insurance, 1000 per month in nanny fees, and about 2000 per month to a mutual fund. this is a deliberate choice. but to suggest that one making 200k, or even 150k, based on normal relative expenses without deliberately putting oneself into debt, is not enough to get by in NJ, or any state for that matter, is dishonest without revealing all of the facts.
and in fact, gives our residents here a poor reputation, smacking of a Paris Hilton or the chronic sports millionaire complaining that they don't make enough, or that they are underpaid. We do NOT want to get hte reputation of NY'ers.
let me add that i am shaking my head in bewilderment with how people's $$ flows like water. i mean, 200k is a great chunk of change, by any standard. its almost a quarter million dollars a year. tell someone, randomly, that combined you 2 make a 1/4 mil a year and watch their jaw drop.
and if you think its too expensive, how about those making much less.
what is it? 100k+ annual income earners in america approximate about 2-3% of the entire populace in the USA! and 200k? that puts your earning power in the upper 1%. meaning, 99% make less than you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Now, I'll probably be earning $60,000 around age 40, and with my frugal lifestyle and Scranton's low cost-of-living ratio, this type of scenario would be quite possible for me. I'm not legally allowed to wed in this "closet red" state, so a family is out of the picture for me. As such, that $60,000 NET (I'm assuming a higher gross income as a senior accountant for a major firm with almost 20 years of experience), will be free for me to use however I wish. 
I couldn't imagine walking by someone in plight and just turning my head the other way; I saw many suit-and-tie clad corporate executives in Manhattan (probably many hailing from apparent "poverty-ravaged" NJ) walking by people begging in tattered clothing for any sort of help. I gave $2 to each person I walked by who looked to be in distress. If I could afford to help these people while only earning $9/hr., then why couldn't those uppper-class executives afford at least $2 as well? We're becoming a society of "screw the other guy if it gets me ahead", and the rudeness, hostility, and negative reputation this thread has garnered me from some people now has my blood boiling with rage. 
(And I'm generally an amicable, relaxed, spiritual person). 
I applaud you for that; I wish I could master the skill of "getting to the point." LOL! 
Once again, this brings in that concept of somebody truly struggling and someone who perceives themselves as struggling. If you are truly struggling, then the first thing on your mind should be "how will I afford to put food on the table tomorrow night when I just had our furnace serviced?" If you perceive yourself to be struggling, then having to forgo a trip to Banana Republic or skipping a romantic night out on the town with your spouse to save a bit for a rainy day seems more logical. I don't think anybody in this thread wakes up in the morning cold, or hungry, or without clothing to wear, or without sufficient access to medical care, etc. I think it's more a case of "Everyone from my college graduating class has an Audi, and I'm still driving a Passat. Why is life such a struggle?" If he/she was truly struggling, then the first thought to pop into his/her head would be how will I get to work when I can't afford the monthly insurance payments to purchase a reliable vehicle? 
Yuppie Hating PA Residents
