Union County-based AA family looking for a way out of NJ entirely (Westfield: loans, how much)

[rekaten]

@Mattie: interesting article indeed. It's pretty cool to see different perspectives, particularly the exact opposite of mine from a fellow WF resident! Everyone has their own reasons to live where they do. I personally don't think that the caliber of the high school alone is worth all the anguish we've had to battle through for 4-5+ years already. I have no idea what my brother's exact opinion/reaction on the prospect of moving OOS, all I know is that he doesn't think it's happening. I hear my sister's concerns loud and clear. But I also think my dad should hear me out, and especially my mom.

My dad used to be a stockbroker, then he switched careers to working with the developmentally disabled. He then left that job several years back to start a business with my mom which sadly failed.

@JerseyGirl415: okay, I snapped because you called me selfish and CaptainNJ (yes, I know his username; my previous comment had been on purpose) had been very condescending throughout the thread. Perhaps I was a bit overly rude to you in my response, but then again, you probably shouldn't have accused me of not having my family's best interests in mind. That was unnecessary. Of course WF wasn't all bad - I may have made some mistakes that still leave me scratching my head in hindsight, but I guess I needed to make them to learn. And the WHS name is well-known to a lot of colleges. You Whatever happens, I feel my dad will weigh all of our concerns carefully and come to the best decision for the family. If that means we stay put in the 908, then I guess that's fine. I can always remain in NC after college and beyond.

@GiantRutgersFan: Where did I say that I would be the one to make the decision for the family?? All I'm saying is that I should have some input in my family's matters because we're really close-knit. Only my dad is in his mid-50s; mom is mid-40s. I get what you're saying about it being a decision between my two parents, which is what it will ultimately be in the end. But I don't think that us three children should just have our voices be shut out entirely.

@Gerania: congrats. I'm happy you're doing well up here, NC to NJ isn't nearly as common as the other way around. I don't think the grass should be assumed to be greener up here, either. But, of course, to each their own.

P.S. to all reading this thread...one (NOT the only) of the main reasons I am pushing for an NC move to happen within the next year is so I can get in-state tuition next year. We had to take out quite a decent amount of loans my first year, and it looks like more of the same for this coming year. My parents saved a college fund for me when my dad was doing well in his career, but it apparently isn't as large as I initially believed. At least once a day, I worry about how my parents are gonna pay for my college tuition given the (financial state) we are currently in. The fear really sets in on the occasion where I see an in-state student have to take a year off from school or leave entirely because it's too expensive. Take that as you will.

[King of the South]

Based on your posts to Jerseygirl and CaptainNJ, one thing is clear: you've got too much Jersey attitude for the south. You are hereby sentenced to a lifetime in NJ with the rest of us overopinionated, complaining loudmouths, including myself.

Report back to NJ immediately after you get your B.A. You can get a temporary reprieve of two years if you go straight to graduate school, but then back to NJ you go.

[JerseyGirl415]

Originally Posted by rekaten

@JerseyGirl415: okay, I snapped because you called me selfish and CaptainNJ had been very condescending throughout the thread. Perhaps I was rude to you in my response, but then again you probably shouldn't have accused me of not having my family's best interests in mind. Of course WF wasn't all bad - I may have made some mistakes that still leave me scratching my head in hindsight, but I guess I needed to make them to learn. And the WHS name is well-known to a lot of colleges. You Whatever happens, I feel my dad will weigh all of our concerns carefully and come to the best decision for the family. If that means we stay put in the 908, then I guess that's fine. I can always remain in NC after college and beyond.

Why not? That's 100% what it sounds like to me, honestly, not trying to be mean or condescending at all.

I don't blame you for your attitude regarding this issue or your opinions. Honestly, those come with your age. You have recently gone to college to a state/area you seem to really like, and have heard your mom talk about how unhappy she is, and are putting two and two together and thinking maybe your whole family can move to the wonderful state of NC which you love. You are at the prime age for making very selfish decisions, and it's not even something you can control or are doing on purpose or likely even realize you're doing. Please don't take this the wrong way, I am not trying to be rude here. But trust me, you sound selfish and also like you're getting too involved in something you shouldn't be. You probably don't mean to sound like this, but you do. You wouldn't be getting such strong responses if you didn't. We were all 19 once. We get it. And many people here have a lot of experience in life, since they're older and many have lived in a lot of places before either settling here or leaving here and settling elsewhere. Even I am still young and people here have way more experience than I do.

There are a few flaws with your argument, and the issues have been pointed out to you (yes CaptainNJ can seem a bit harsh honestly he's like that a lot but his advice was sound). First and foremost, you are very young and have yet to live out on your own. You may like what you currently see of NC, but it's from the perspective of a student in college in a college town, likely, if it's a UNC school or NC State or something. You are not out working and living in the real world, trying to get and keep a job, pay bills, find a good place to live, etc. etc. Harsh as it may sound to you, you have zero life experience and to many of us here, it sounds like you have no right to tell your parents where to move or why or when - even if your mom evidently agrees with you.

This is the second issue - the fact that this is no longer your problem. Again, while I understand seeing your mom unhappy makes you unhappy, this is an issue between your parents and your parents only. You have obviously made your decision. You've left and probably won't come back. You're on your own now, you've chosen to move away. Even though things are hard for your mom, it may not be in the rest of the family's best interest to leave right now or anytime soon. If I were you, I would stay out of the whole moving issue, at least until everyone seems to be on board and it's actually a viable option that looks like it will definitely happen. Because as of right now, based on what you've said, your dad and siblings are reluctant to go/don't see the need, and it's only you and your mom really pushing for it.

NC sounds good on paper to you, you like what you've seen so far, and maybe it will be great for the family. But maybe it won't be. This is not a decision that is made lightly. You said your mom has a government job here, government jobs in NJ and in general may not pay a lot but give you solid benefits. Between that and your siblings needing to finish and even start high school, there is a good case for staying in NJ for the time being.

There is no guarantee that your dad will get a job in NC, or your mom, or that their business ventures will work. None at all. It's a gamble. The whole move would be a gamble, honestly, especially if no jobs or contacts to help with a business are lined up. It just isn't as easy as you seem to think it is. And I know it's been said a lot, but the grass isn't always greener. You seem to not think or acknowledge the cons of living in NC, and they are there, even when compared to living in NJ. There are certainly major pros to staying in NJ so your siblings can finish school and your mom can get her benefits and pension then move once retired like so many public workers in NJ do, among the least.

Why the rush? This doesn't need to happen soon. IMHO it shouldn't happen until your siblings are out of high school. Most people I know who made that move waited until their kids were out of high school, sometimes even college, to move south. It's difficult for a kid to move to a new school, let alone a new state, in high school. I called you selfish because it doesn't seem you realize that. You seem to think it's going to be okay, but it's hard on a kid to move, especially at that age when friend groups and stuff are settled. You have moved and like it and now have blinders on and think the whole family should join. Even if you don't mean to be, this sounds like a very selfish way of thinking. So I didn't mean to be insulting at all, I'm just telling you what comes across.

Also, you go on and on about why YOU hate NJ, and your mom seems to hate it because she hasn't had much success here, yeah?, and only in recent years, but your dad likes it and IIRC you didn't mention your siblings disliking it so much if at all. Your problem has been solved. You're out and plan to stay out. You also sounded selfish to me because you seem to want the whole family to follow for yours and your mom's reasons. What about your dad who likes it here? Your siblings who would probably lean towards completing their education in their lifelong town before moving? I imagine most normal well-adjusted high school kids would be against moving to another state out of nowhere before school is finished. I mean, you've left. Really, the issue is over. Anything involving your parents is their problem, not yours. It's the beauty of being an adult. No guarantee your mom will be so successful in NC or any other state, btw.

[rscalzo]

So you are upset because you lived in a town that by your own description gave you a top quality education? You seem to think NC is so great yet they rank 38th. in the country in high school rankings. The cost of living is much lower? Sure in some towns. Others are as high as NJ and out of reach for many. Every state has pluses and minuses.

[rekaten]

@KOTS: hahahahaha, well played!! That made me smile.
I'm going for a B.S., though.

@JPG415: Okay, I got you now. You don't sound rude to me in this post at all.

I go to a UNC school, yes. And just a note: NC State is in the UNC system.

My mom has never actually liked NJ. In fact, she's always disliked living here ever since she first moved in with my dad two decades ago (she once lived in NY). My dad likes it here and thinks it's great despite our struggles, but as a disenchanted college kid who moved out, I honestly can't see why. Both siblings are either neutral towards NJ or they like it, but they actually would be willing to live elsewhere even during high school (well, my brother, at least...)

There is no guarantee that we'll be successful in NC, no. But mom is at least 15 years away from retiring and I highly doubt that they'd stay for that long. Getting back on our feet as a collective whole has taken several years. As KOTS said a page or two ago, NJ's COL and high taxes makes it difficult for small businesses to really thrive here. And interracial interaction, from what I've read on that state's forums, is more comfortable in NC than it is in many areas of NJ, especially North Jersey where I am. Case in point - brother graduated middle school this week. My mom told me that during the ceremony at the high school there was a little black baby making noise and crying in the back of the auditorium as the students were getting their diplomas. She mentioned that a lot of white parents who were near that family were looking around, sort of with a disgusted look on their face. To that, I firmly replied, "my point is proven even further!!". Sister and I were in the cafeteria, and we were the only black people in the room; everyone else was white, with the odd Hispanic or Asian mixed in there. I wasn't very comfortable tbh. Which goes back to how I felt growing up. No, NC isn't perfect with racism either, and I would be beyond naive to believe that. I understand any reluctance to move to that particular state based on that issue alone (again, my family hasn't left the tri-state in God knows how long). But they should at least visit and see how it really is. Places aren't racist; only individual people are.

I realize that I'm sounding almost insufferably stubborn here, but like I said, it couldn't hurt to try. The worst that could happen is that they move back, really. I realize that my inexperience is showing again, but that's just how I see it.

And yeah, I'm selfish for wanting to leave for the reasons I've stated. So is my mom. Another selfish reason of mine is that all of my friends will have left Westfield by the end of the 2016-17 school year, so no point in my family remaining here. But one could also make a counter-argument that my dad is selfish for keeping us all here to be in close proximity to a city that we visit a maximum of two times a year despite the fact that two of us are very obviously unhappy (and with good reason), or another possible counter could be that one or both of my siblings would be selfish for preventing us from moving for the sole fact that they haven't finished high school yet. As humans, we are all inherently selfish. But we believe our intentions are good and fair, and that we mostly act for the right reasons. I think we all have good reasons for feeling the way we feel.

I'm not surprised that I'm getting calls to stay in NJ here in this forum. The members of the other three states' forums are welcoming towards the idea of my family moving, even within the next year, and some are even recommending areas of town to live in. In fact, I'm hearing great things about Durham with regards to cultural amenities and how great it is for small businesses like the ones my parents want to start. Same post as I did here, but wildly different responses. It is nice to hear different opinions and perspectives, even if I don't necessarily agree with them (and may vehemently disagree with them). Truthfully, I appreciate the advice and the urging to stay in the state - I guess I may have painted our residents with a broad brush.

I know we're likely visiting my college town for vacation for a week or two before I head back to school. I want to at least talk it over with my mom and see how she really feels about moving. For all I know, she may see the logic in staying, and the issue won't be brought up again. But she's sacrificed so much. Really, both my parents have sacrificed WAY too much and work WAY too hard to see us end up like we have been for a while now. We moved to many different houses and apartments when I was growing up - seven different residences within Westfield in the last thirteen years. To me, that doesn't sound like a desirable situation. Not one that's working. But in the end, it isn't my call to make.

@rscalzo: I highly doubt that anywhere in NC costs more than the average NJ home/city. But yes, every state has its weaknesses: personally, I HATE NC's current governor and think he's far worse than ours. But my hope is that he will be voted out in November. God sparing my life until then, I'll be doing my part!

[JerseyGirl415]

I think that you should leave (well you already have) and that your parents should only stay for a little while longer. I don't see anyone saying stay for good and never leave, just stay for the time being. It's not something that really needs to be rushed - at least you didn't make it seem urgent other than you want it to be.

You said your friends have apparently all left WF or NJ or whatever and that's a reason your family should or could move out... but you already have. How do your friends affect what your family does? So YOUR friends have moved, so have you and you seem to want to stay, I fail to see how that is relevant. I don't think your dad is selfish for keeping you somewhere where you're all settled (except you because you're in college now). I don't know your parents' financial situation but I think that would only be true if they could barely make it by and were struggling HARD. Like can barely scrape by each month and risk losing where you live and losing your car(s) or stuff like that. And even then it's still not an easy decision and there is no guarantee moving will make it that much better.

I imagine that people were simply annoyed at the baby crying in your story from your brothers graduation btw and that it has nothing to do with race. Babies crying during a time like that is annoying and is going to get the parents some dirty looks. People would have been equally annoyed had the crying baby been purple as they would have had he or she been white. I don't think that in particular is an example of racism.

Anyway, it seems your family will probably move at some point. I don't doubt that the South is better for blacks than the North simply because there are more blacks down there and it's less segregated for that reason. That would be a plus for your family. BTW though parts of VA and MD are going to be just as expensive as northern NJ so you may want to rethink those two unless you'll be far away from DC. COL around DC is insane and those suburbs go pretty far out. If and when they do move they should try to have jobs lined up. It's not good to go down there ASAP then have to figure things out. I'm sure your parents already know that though. No offense meant but they have a hell of a lot more to think and worry about than you do in their situation. Good luck to you all.

[Shoshanarose]

I am curious why your mom is miserable in NJ/WF?

However, I do think that some people are much more sensitive to "place"and where they live, the atmosphere, the emotional tenor of the place.
I am one of these people.

When I was a young kid my parents moved from a middle class NJ town to an upper middle class/upper class NJ town (likely similar to WF in tone) for the sole purpose of giving my sibling and me a first-class education in the public school system (because we couldn't afford private school).

The middle class town was ranked very medium in terms of the public schools. The second, upper middle class town was ranked one of the best public schools in NJ, if not the country.

However, if I had to choose, I would have stayed in the first town.
Why? Because my sibling and I were much more socially comfortable in the first town, had a lot of friends, felt we fit in. We didn't feel comfortable in this way in the second upper class town.

My parents also fit in better and had more friends in the middle class town, but they adapted to the second town and say they're happy in the second town. They enjoy the amenities of the town, nice downtown, etc., and have made friends where they could - at work, people who live in nearby (more pleasant!, more diverse) towns, a very few rare gems from our current town, etc.

I just know that my life socially and emotionally would have been preferable in the first/middle class town.
It is more of a Jewish town, for one (and we are Jewish), so we fit in better in that way.
I know it's hard to believe in this day and age (not sure if this still exists there - but when we moved to the second town and went to school there, there were several "restricted" country clubs that did not allow Jews to join! Only WASP's. I think they also didn't allow Catholics to join! Needless to say, Asians and African-Americans were not admitted ) Even as a kid, I found this highly uncomfortable.
Nothing like this existed in the first town!

Also, while my family isn't poor, and we actually now have climbed into the solid upper middle class, our sensibilities are more straight middle class and down to earth. My parents each grew up poor and working class, respectively. Neither of them works on Wall Street (where most of the people in town work) or vote Republican (how most people in the second town vote).

Things are also more formal in the second town.
In the first town, I remember I called my friends' parents by the first names.
In the second town, everyone's parents are Mr. Soandso, Mrs. Soandso
It sounds subtle, but there's a different tone of the town.

As someone who is sensitive to emotions and the atmosphere of a place, I know I felt much more comfortable in the first town.
I was popular in the first town, and sort of...didn't fit in in the second town.
Of course I found my friends, a small group of other...slightly "less cool" kids, and DID have friends in the second town. But also, my friends were a group of the more down to earth people in the town.

So, OP, I understand your feelings.

[rekaten]

@JG415: I guess my folks probably should stay a little bit longer. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Who knows? Too early to really say at this point.

There was a point when we were struggling pretty hard, and yes we did lose our apartment years ago, but we were never at risk for losing our car (though we do need a new one). We're financially stable now, but it has been a very long road back. I just thank God that we all got through it with our health intact, and that we became much closer as a family (our situation required us kids to cancel/postpone hangouts very often, for instance. So we had to stay home most weekends).

Yeah, perhaps that incident is being read into too much. But PM me for an actual racist situation.

As I said in the OP, I crossed NoVA out of consideration because it would have been just a repeat of where we are now. Trying to get away from that. I don't really know about the MD options' proximity to DC, but I do know that they are pretty damn expensive. I appreciate your advice and apologize for my rudeness earlier.

@Soshanarose: my mom is miserable because we've been through so much crap during our time here. As I mentioned to JG, we had to leave an apartment we had about three and a half years ago, which was caused by the failed business. We've fallen on pretty hard luck and only started to pick ourselves back up towards the end of last year. She also despises the very stuck-up aura of WF residents. But the main reason is that both my parents have worked too hard and sacrificed too much for the level of misfortune we've experienced.

You and I are similar. My family moved from Harrison, a town which was probably similar to yours, to Westfield for the first-class public schools. At the time, I was six, my sister was two, and my brother had barely been born - so yeah, our whole lives. Having had lots of feuds throughout middle and high school for going against the grain (really, my skin color already made it easy to do so), I began struggling with social anxiety. I never really fit in here at all. My sister, an introvert, probably feels the same way. My brother also agrees that the town produces very elitist people (though he's kinda a snob himself lol). Like you, a lot of my own happiness depends on the atmosphere of the town and the mannerisms of those who reside in it. So though I also had a good amount of friends in HS, it doesn't compare to my genuine happiness in college. I would not go back to my HS days if you asked me to. I would also not live in Westfield ever again if you quadrupled my salary, gave my family a free house, and gave me a million dollar relocation bonus. I mean that.

Am I grateful for the excellent education I received during my time here? Of course. Do I love and cherish the friends I did make while here? Absolutely. Would I return to raise my own children? Not in a million years.

[rekaten]

Just hit me that we've NEVER bought a home here in NJ at all...damn.

[CaptainNJ]

Originally Posted by rekaten

Yeah, cool. I don't give a damn how nice you claim to be, because you're not showing it at all. I'm a very nice person, and I had friends here growing up. I got along with many people. But even then, some of those with whom I got along were still fairly snobby. Why the hell would I be jealous of people I hated since middle school when they started treating me awfully? I would have hated those people no matter where we lived. You clearly don't even get what I'm saying and your own "Captain of the Garden State" ego is so incredibly overinflated.

NJ isn't the greatest place in the world, farther from it than most US states in fact. If it was anywhere close to what you think it was, it wouldn't be the state with the most outbound moves EVERY SINGLE YEAR. The excruciating insufferability of charlatans like you is one of the reasons that this state carries that distinction. Clearly, the potential for another family having the sense to leave America's armpit gets under your incredibly thin skin. Your feelings are hurt. Like JG415, try getting out for once. In any case, thank you both for merely proving my point about how stuck-up people really are in this state.

I already know that you're going to say, "oh, you wanted opinions and I'm just being honest". Guess what? Your opinion is WRONG. So save whatever BS response you have up your sleeve.

BTW, what self-respecting so-called man calls themselves a "sweetie pie"?

so how do you define "snobby"? what did these people do to treat you awfully? why do you hate these people? when i said that you will get along with some people, that didnt mean that you will hate the other people. you seem like you have a problem socializing with others. just because you dont get along with certain people doesnt make it appropriate for you to hate them. i deal with lots of different types of people and even ones that I have no interest socializing with would I say that i hate them.

i have no interest in defending NJ. it has positives and negatives and everyone needs to make their own informed decision. im sure that as a sophomore in college you believe your decision is very well informed and adults will probably disagree with you.

im not going to say "oh, you wanted opinions and I'm just being honest." i dont care if you dont like my opinions, I will give them without qualification. i am a captain.

who calls themselves a sweetie pie? clearly i do.