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Even though some who have posted in here are my pals : ) I have to agree with you jy_2007. Alot of Americans assume that because someone doesn't speak our language, that they are beneath us! It is bigotry. If I'm not mistaken, most of us are children or grand children of aliens who came over to the US to escape similiar situations and/or to start a better life for their families! Why shouldn't others have that right? Does anyone ever wonder why they are "illegal"? Or why they "sneak over" the border? Why not just get on a plane, fly over and stay? Because in Mexico for instance - you can not leave that country - even if it's just on vacation unless you own property. And if you own property, you have to put it up as a guarantee that you will return! I'm sure most "illegal immigrants" would prefer to be "legal"...why not give them the same option we give everyone else from other countries? Britian...Germany..Ireland...
Wiley, plenty of Mexican citizens have filed for American citizenship legally. They wanted to become Americans and did it the right way. How would you feel if you were in a grocery store, and someone cut in front of you? That's what someone is doing when they cross our borders without permission. If it is a language issue, then I will add this: I'd love to see a similar fence built from Point Roberts Washington to West Quoddy Head Maine. Except for the Quebec portion, every other province in Canada speaks English. I am for securing our borders. We are a sovereign nation. Every nation has a right to fortify their borders, including Mexico, incidentally. And from what I understand, their national guard backs a fence made of concertina wire that borders.... Guatemala. A neighbor to the south, that speaks the same language. That is their right as a nation. They are similarly protecting their borders from interlopers.
First of all, in this state, "We Push Back" is more likely to be directed toward the Legislature!
Here's my take on the illegal immigration problem. In plain and simple terms, illegal immigration is just another example of the middle class being screwed from within. These people come here for one reason. Jobs. If no one hired them THEY WOULDN'T COME HERE!!! You can deport them, raid their homes, and arrest them, but as long as there are jobs to be had and money to be made, they will keep coming. Businesses decided long ago that it was better for them to pay slave wages and no benefits to illegal immigrants rather than American workers. As a result the American worker can't possibly compete for low/no skill positions. We've been hit with a double whammy. Corporations large enough to move overseas outsourced practically all manufacturing jobs, and we all know where the computer/phone based jobs have gone/are going. Smaller businesses that couldn't be outsourced (Your local construction company, landscaper, or TGI Fridays can't exactly pick up and move to China or India), began to hire people who were quite simply willing to work for less. Also, I really don't want to hear "But I didn't know they were illegal! They fooled me!" That argument holds about as much water as the loan officer who approved a $500K mortgage for a guy who listed his occupation as "McDonalds Drive-Thru" and his salary as $100K.
I find that the most simple analogy to describe this is to picture a broken flaming natural gas main in the middle of the street. You can spray water on the flame to make it smaller all you want-unless you shut off the gas you're never going to put it out. The supply of jobs NEEDS to be cut off. People that hire these workers need to be fined out of business to send a message to anyone else doing the same. These guys need to suck it up and pay an American worker an American wage, plain and simple.
Some have said in this thread that they don't patronize businesses that employ illegal immigrants. At this point that's about as easy as buying products that are made in the U.S. Just because you go to a restaurant and don't see people with tawny skin in the dining room doesn't mean they aren't there. Likewise, just because there are people of Hispanic descent working there doesn't mean they're illegal either. However, wherever you go, illegal immigrants are there. They wash the dishes, bus the tables, take out the trash, etc... Stayed in a hotel lately? An illegal immigrant likely cleaned your room. Bought any kind of produce that requires picking? Guess who picked it? Did you shop in any kind of store? You can bet that there are one or two there.
Let me be clear and say that I'm not "feeling sorry for them," and I don't advocate allowing this to continue. I advocate what the government is afraid to do-go after the people that hire them. A lot of folks take the angle that this is about preserving U.S. sovereignty, etc...which to me is a lot of jingoistic crap bordering on white supremacist crap. This is about businesses large AND small screwing the American worker.
First of all, in this state, "We Push Back" is more likely to be directed toward the Legislature!
Here's my take on the illegal immigration problem. In plain and simple terms, illegal immigration is just another example of the middle class being screwed from within. These people come here for one reason. Jobs. If no one hired them THEY WOULDN'T COME HERE!!! You can deport them, raid their homes, and arrest them, but as long as there are jobs to be had and money to be made, they will keep coming. Businesses decided long ago that it was better for them to pay slave wages and no benefits to illegal immigrants rather than American workers. As a result the American worker can't possibly compete for low/no skill positions. We've been hit with a double whammy. Corporations large enough to move overseas outsourced practically all manufacturing jobs, and we all know where the computer/phone based jobs have gone/are going. Smaller businesses that couldn't be outsourced (Your local construction company, landscaper, or TGI Fridays can't exactly pick up and move to China or India), began to hire people who were quite simply willing to work for less.
I find that the most simple analogy to describe this is to picture a broken flaming natural gas main in the middle of the street. You can spray water on the flame to make it smaller all you want-unless you shut off the gas you're never going to put it out. The supply of jobs NEEDS to be cut off. People that hire these workers need to be fined out of business to send a message to anyone else doing the same. These guys need to suck it up and pay an American worker an American wage, plain and simple.
Some have said in this thread that they don't patronize businesses that employ illegal immigrants. At this point that's about as easy as buying products that are made in the U.S. Just because you go to a restaurant and don't see people with tawny skin in the dining room doesn't mean they aren't there. Likewise, just because there are people of Hispanic descent working there doesn't mean they're illegal either. However, wherever you go, illegal immigrants are there. They wash the dishes, bus the tables, take out the trash, etc... Stayed in a hotel lately? An illegal immigrant likely cleaned your room. Bought any kind of produce that requires picking? Guess who picked it? Did you shop in any kind of store? You can bet that there are one or two there.
Let me be clear and say that I'm "feeling sorry for them," and I don't advocate allowing this to continue. I advocate what the government is afraid to do-go after the people that hire them. A lot of folks take the angle that this is about preserving U.S. sovereignty, etc...which to me is a lot of jingoistic crap bordering on white supremacist crap. This is about businesses large AND small screwing the American worker.
Excellent post! As a contractor, I do not hire illegals to do work for me. Although I do have a tough time finding American laborers who want to work hard! Most I have met are collecting unemployment..sitting in a bar all afternoon, etc. It's also Lazy Americans who feed this issue. Get off your arse and get a job! No matter what the pay is... it's better than not working. But I do agree with your post...Hate the Game not the player! Supply = demand.
Excellent post! As a contractor, I do not hire illegals to do work for me. Although I do have a tough time finding American laborers who want to work hard! Most I have met are collecting unemployment..sitting in a bar all afternoon, etc.
I've heard this argument and just don't believe it. During the busiest season (summer) of the construction/landscaping industry there are plenty of college/high school kids looking for work. During the rest of the year, in this economy there are plenty of people hungry for work. Maybe some of these guys who you see sitting in the bar and collecting unemployment have heard "sorry, we can't pay $10.00 and we don't give benefits" one too many times.
I went to high school with plenty of guys (and girls) who went to vocational school/2 year colleges rather than move on to 4 year colleges to train in construction, auto repair, food service and other occupations. They put in their time, earned their certifications, associates degrees, etc...and expected to find good jobs. THEY are the ones who are hurt the most by the government turning a blind eye to businesses hiring illegal immigrants. These are hardworking people who deserve to earn living wage in exchange for their skills so that they can raise a family and get their own little piece of the American dream. Since they aspire to own a home, pay their taxes, have children, and provide for them, they can't possibly compete with an illegal immigrant, here on their own, working 3 jobs, and living in a house with 10 or 15 other people splitting the rent. They don't require much money to live on, and they send the rest back to their home country where, despite the decline of the dollar, they still make out well.
How the heck could you figure out who's illegal or not? You require passports everytime you go to a restaurant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin
I already have, to the best of my knowledge.
The restaurants I go to I know most of the employees, I know the owners, or I know the restaurant manager and how they conduct their business. So, to the best of my knowledge, I already have.
I cut my own lawn, but if I needed a landscaper, I would look to my neighbor (he does all the work). I avoid stores who have hired illegal immigrants (where matters have come out publicly). I have done precisely this for years, for a variety of reasons (including treatment of employees, company actions, etc) because I'm a politically motivated a-hole.
Now personally, I don't think these immigrants should be illegal. I would like them to pay taxes, and not get all of the benefits (might help out our social security situation). However, as they are still illegal as of this moment, many having falsified documents, I do not wish to give my money to a company doing something I consider incorrect. I will continue to do so to the best of my knowledge, which is probably more than your or many others are even willing to do.
The restaurants I go to I know most of the employees, I know the owners, or I know the restaurant manager and how they conduct their business. So, to the best of my knowledge, I already have.
I cut my own lawn, but if I needed a landscaper, I would look to my neighbor (he does all the work). I avoid stores who have hired illegal immigrants (where matters have come out publicly). I have done precisely this for years, for a variety of reasons (including treatment of employees, company actions, etc) because I'm a politically motivated a-hole.
That's certainly a more real world response. For a lot of folks though it's also a matter of simple economic facility. Case in point. I hate Wal-Mart, in fact, I loathe Wal-Mart. However, my truck takes 15 quarts of oil and I change it myself because a shop would charge me close to $100. When I need oil I go to Wal-Mart-why? Because I'll save close to $10 between the 4 gallons of oil and the filter. Considering I change my oil between six and eight times per year it adds up, especially since I'm now paying almost $4.25 a gallon for diesel! When it comes to landscaping, I couldn't afford to hire a landscaper, illegally staffed or not, even if I wanted to! It works out though because I enjoy doing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuCullin
Now personally, I don't think these immigrants should be illegal. I would like them to pay taxes, and not get all of the benefits (might help out our social security situation).
In reality, those who are being paid "on the books" with false social security numbers are doing us a favor of sorts. Illegal immigrants don't file tax returns or get refunds and they don't collect social security. Whether or not that excess money is being well spent by the government, that's a whole other topic!
I know on May 1st the illegal criminals are holding rallies across the country in order to scare the lawmakers into passing "comprehensive immigration reform."
Here's an interesting thought. It's been clearly demonstrated over and over again that many of New Jersey's corruption problems/the fact that the legislature does NOT do the will of the people can be traced to the fact that the people do not vote. How then, do illegal immigrants think they will sway the opinion of lawmakers when they CAN'T vote? Quite simply, the only people with any kind of power in this country are those who vote in VERY large blocks. Ever heard of AARP?
I wouldn't say its a more real-world response, I'd say its really more of an elongated response. To the best of my knowledge, I don't support places which hire illegal immigrants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badfish740
In reality, those who are being paid "on the books" with false social security numbers are doing us a favor of sorts. Illegal immigrants don't file tax returns or get refunds and they don't collect social security. Whether or not that excess money is being well spent by the government, that's a whole other topic!
Eh, I'd disagree there. They may pay a few bucks into it, but they could also be 1099'd, or declare extra dependents, and get most of the money in their pockets. I'd like to see a 0 filing status required (government spending issues aside), and really see our government work to punish those companies who would pay under the table. Now obviously I don't mean the 96yr old woman next door paying $10 for a neighbor kid to rake the leaves, but there are big companies out there raking in profits due to their disrespect for others in hiring illegal immigrant workers.
I've heard this argument and just don't believe it. During the busiest season (summer) of the construction/landscaping industry there are plenty of college/high school kids looking for work. During the rest of the year, in this economy there are plenty of people hungry for work. Maybe some of these guys who you see sitting in the bar and collecting unemployment have heard "sorry, we can't pay $10.00 and we don't give benefits" one too many times.
I went to high school with plenty of guys (and girls) who went to vocational school/2 year colleges rather than move on to 4 year colleges to train in construction, auto repair, food service and other occupations. They put in their time, earned their certifications, associates degrees, etc...and expected to find good jobs. THEY are the ones who are hurt the most by the government turning a blind eye to businesses hiring illegal immigrants. These are hardworking people who deserve to earn living wage in exchange for their skills so that they can raise a family and get their own little piece of the American dream. Since they aspire to own a home, pay their taxes, have children, and provide for them, they can't possibly compete with an illegal immigrant, here on their own, working 3 jobs, and living in a house with 10 or 15 other people splitting the rent. They don't require much money to live on, and they send the rest back to their home country where, despite the decline of the dollar, they still make out well.
So..your educated pals are willing to pick corn all day everyday for $10.00/hr? Or work outside in the hot sun all summer long weed wacking... mowing lawns? Send a few my way.. Think they would mind digging holes all day...raking dirt? Lets face it folks - if we lose the immigrant workers, corn will be up to $10.00/ear... getting your lawn mowed by someone else will soon be a thing of the past - between the cost of fuel and now landscapers needing to hire American workers and include benefits!!
So..your educated pals are willing to pick corn all day everyday for $10.00/hr? Or work outside in the hot sun all summer long weed wacking... mowing lawns? Send a few my way.. Think they would mind digging holes all day...raking dirt? Lets face it folks - if we lose the immigrant workers, corn will be up to $10.00/ear... getting your lawn mowed by someone else will soon be a thing of the past - between the cost of fuel and now landscapers needing to hire American workers and include benefits!!
Ah, doesn't matter. Flour is already $29.99 per 50 lb. bag. Notice your pizza pie going up in price? American farmers are knocking off growing wheat and growing corn - for ethanol. And gas is still $3.50+/gallon in my neck of the woods.
Don't need migratory workers for that. A big old machine can handle all that corn picking.
So what do we need migrant workers for these days? Oranges? Grapefruits? Carrots? Potatos? Tobacco? Seriously. Why are farmers subsidized if they can hire legal workers? Where are they spending their subsidized monies? How do they say, "thank you Unlce Sam, now I'm going to take that money and pay an illegal"? Don't they have to keep records and prove where they spend it?
I don't know about tree bearing-fruit, but there are machines that can harvest pretty much anything that grows in or close to the ground. Don't want an illegal picking your produce? Demand farmers prove who they hire are legal especially if they receive federal help. I don't know why farmers are so easily let off the hook in the day and age where machines can milk cows. Machines also pick carrots, potatos, etc. "Migrant" worker pretty much = illegal.
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