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Dual agency is a BAD SITUATION regardless of whether it's the same agent. The firm is still making 2 commissions. The firm has a vested interest in keeping the deal together even if it should not be kept together.
And a buyers agent with another company has no motivation to keep a deal together? THey aren't in it for the money? They are somehow immune to the needs & temptations that make all dual agents the scum of the earth?
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Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
Also I've covered this, but the typical real estate office is a gossipfest. People's private business is all over the place. Shop talk is everywhere and people's secrets are NOT kept secret the way they should be. Files are in unlocked cabinets and desktops are littered with everything from field notes to credit reports to contracts. If a property has an offer on it and Agent B wants to bring another offer, it'll take him 30 seconds to open a drawer and find out exactly what the competing offer is, including down payment and terms. This is a BAD situation.
First, not everyone operates the way you seem to think real estate agents operate. Perhaps your office, but not all. My office is NOT a gossipfest, files containing active transactions or offfers are NOT available to be rifled through, and private business os NOT lept all over the place. Especiallly not mine, as all my files are kept electronicallly, on my laptop. Second, even if tyhis information were available to others in the office, the laws regarding this REQUIRE that it not be used or shared with anyone without permission. All your objections seem to take the form of "If it's dual agency AND Your afgent is a moron, or is a theif, or is incompetent, or doesn't know how to keep their information to themselves, it'a a bad thing. I contend that if your agent is a moron, or is incomptent, or is a theif, or can't keep your information confidential, you're screwed whether he's a dual agent or not. And if your agent is competent, honest, & intelligent, then you aren't in any worse a position if he's a dual agent than if he's not.
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Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
So my advice stands: DUAL AGENCY is a BAD DEAL for homebuyers and homesellers. It should be avoided at all costs. Period. End of discussion.
You got hold of the issue and now stand on your soapbox, railing agaisnt a practice that has served thousands of people very well, withut fully understanding it. Here's one for you. I work in the Bernardsville office. I list a house in Bridgewater, which is 12 mines south of my office. The buyer is represented by another agent of my company in the Hillsborough office, which is 14 miles south of the house. Because we are both with the same company, we are dual agents. I met that agent once before they brought this buyer to the house, at an awards ceremony for the company a year & a half ago. Show us how either thhe buyer or the seller is hurt by dual agency.
[quote=Marc Paolella;3640514]Finally, my open house advice stands. Simply stating you do not want representation will not prevent the attending agent from recording your name and claiming PROCURING CAUSE in a commission fight. Making it difficult for the buyer to secure his own agent since he will now have to either pay him himself, or find a buyer's agent who can negotiate a reduced split with the listing agent. Something a good agent will have no part of, leaving the buyer to settle for a bad agent who will accept a few pennies to write up the deal. Immoral of course. Unethical of course. But prevalent because it's legal of course.[quote]
I know of NO agent, with my company or another, who, when told "Please don't call me, I don't want to be represented by you" will pursue that person after an open house. Most of us, the intelligent ones of course, understand that people visiting open houses have not committed to anything or to working with anyone. We have other things to do, and don't waste our time pursuing what appear to be dead ends. Your feeling on how people operate might tell us more about how YOU operate than how others do.
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Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
Open house visitors should definitely state that they have their own representative period. Protecting their rights with a white lie is superior to having them subjugated by a commission crazed open house babysitter.
Despite your readiness to lie and to coach others to lie, I feel its always a poor business practice. I guess you can run yourr business your way, and become known for what you advise.
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Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
Bottom line to the buying public: Old time agents love dual agencies. That's how they were brought up. Cutting edge modern professional agents want no part of dual agency because they properly recognize their ethical responsibilities. Choose your agent accordingly.
Fearmongering? You bet. If you are buying a house through the agency that listed the home: Be afraid. Be very afraid.
No, one trick ponies get on thier horse & preach that those doing it differently than they are are all lying scum. Perhaps it's the only way they can get business. Modern cutting edge professional agents have a full understanding of the laws, and take the steps necessary to work for the good of their clients, without stooping to the level that some seem to prefer, where they rant rave & deride those who do it differently. They take their ethical responsibilities seriouslty, and actually understand them completely, instead of finding one easily debatable section and making themselves APPEAR superior by calling others unethical.
But again, if he knows how much he wants to pay for the house why not work directly with the selling agent? I don't see what a buyer's agent can do for him if he already found the house and knows what he wants to pay. Once the bid is in he can have a lawyer handle it.
This is actually true. A very knowledgable buyer who knows what the property is worth and exactly what they want to pay can work through the listing agent and not get killed by dual agency.
However, most buyers don't know what the house is really worth or "how low they can go" given the sellers motivation. My buyers value my input, especially since I've also been an active appraiser for 20+ years.
Plus, from a transaction management standpoint, it's still good to have a buyer's agent making sure that everything is scheduled properly, the professionals (attorneys, appraisers, etc) have everything they need, etc. My job as a buyers agent often includes a lot of nagging and paperwork shuffling. Getting documents from the municipality, hand delivering things, calling the various professionals and making sure everything is proceeding smoothly. Meeting the home inspector, handling the appraiser and making sure he has correct comparables, arranging access for any required contractors or inspectors, etc. Negotiating home inspection items that could otherwise kill the deal. Dealing with paperwork requirements of relo companies. Making sure the fire extinguisher was properly installed. Obtaining and distributing copies of the oil tank closure certificate after we just had that removed. It just never ends.
There's a lot that we do after the basic negotiations are complete. A lot of it seems "invisible", but it is actually time consuming and needs to be done, usually during business hours when the parties to the transaction are at work.
And since there is no "extra charge" for using a buyers agent, why not use one?
you two are confusing me now lol..... when I sold my house the buyers saw it thru the open house that MY realtor held and t hey did the contract through her, did I make the mistake or they did? Personally I wouldnt have done that if I was buying but I was just happy to get it sold I didnt care who they went thru!
you two are confusing me now lol..... when I sold my house the buyers saw it thru the open house that MY realtor held and t hey did the contract through her, did I make the mistake or they did? Personally I wouldnt have done that if I was buying but I was just happy to get it sold I didnt care who they went thru!
If you feel you got a fair deal and the buyer is happy as well, you both won.
As a buyer (and seller) myself, I like certain agents due to my experience with them and would use one of them over a listing agent.
you two are confusing me now lol..... when I sold my house the buyers saw it thru the open house that MY realtor held and t hey did the contract through her, did I make the mistake or they did? Personally I wouldnt have done that if I was buying but I was just happy to get it sold I didnt care who they went thru!
Technically they did - your realtor represented you, as I understand it.
I understand Marc's perspective; at the same time, I think Bill Keegan is also correct. When purchasing, I went through a realtor at the same office, and I did it for a reason.
1) I had thoroughly researched, knew what the property was worth, and had enough information to know the seller's main interest (nothing was private; I actually talked to neighbors).
2) I knew that as long as the seller felt comfortable with my offer, that the agents portion of the job that I needed (presenting my offer, and opening the door for the inspection) would be covered just fine.
3) After my initial offer, I negotiated entirely through my lawyer, not my realtor.
As a result, the seller got rid of an inherited property, I picked up a deal and got some additional credits, and I had an honest (albeit a bit of a snake, all salesman need to be ) agent who - knowing I wasn't asking much of him as a Realtor - was happy to let me swing by and take measurements, etc. It worked out for all.
This debate is over. You are personalizing it, which is a common mistake in Internet forums.
You think dual agency is OK. I do not. It's that simple.
The public should research dual agency online, and, after reading a million horror stories, they can make their own decision as to how to proceed.
-Marc
I'm happy to let it end. But you personalized it, with attacking phrases like "commission crazed open house babysitter" and by suggesting that only old time and somehow less professional agents would want to be involved in dual agency. You didn't present cases or rational arguments, you resorted to hyperbole & fear tactics. Convenient of you to decide it's "over" when I asked you to justify yourself and actually demonstrate the accuracy of your statements.
For the record, I have no problem with the fact that some people think dual agency is not the best way to do business. Everyone should do business the way they are comfortable, and the way they feel works best. My problem is with people who come in and start ranting about how it's always a terrible thing, and how every time you get involved in dual agency you are going to get ripped off by the scum that practice it. Which is pretty much what you did.
And you say people will find "a million horror stories." First of all, I have researched it, and if you had, you would know the number is of horror stories is factors of ten less than that. Second, the horror stories don't appear with any greater frequency, on a percentage basis, with dual agency than they do with single agency. It's just that bigger headlines are made becasue guys like you can point out that dual agency was involved, and therefore must have been the reason. There are bad real estate agents practicing single agency just as there are bad agents practicing dual agency. And last, of course they'll find the horror stories getting reported, because when it's not a horror story, when it works the way it's supposed to, when everything happens correctly, which it does in the OVERWHELMING number of cases, no one bothers to talk about it. Let's look back, shall we, & see whether is was the stauch single agent missionary or the dual agency practicioner who clearly stated, of his own volition, even seemed to be proud of it, that lying & coaching others to lie is part of the way they do business.
One other thing that many people seem to either not know or forget. You can work with the listing agent of the property without agreeing to dual agency. Remember that, at least in NJ, the listing agent and the listing Broker are the agents of the seller. Yiou don't need to be their client at all, but you can be a customer. In that case, you would not count on the listing agent for any advise or confidentiality or loyalty. You would simply use him as a go between with the seller, and he would owe all his allegiance to that seller. In the case like CuCullin described, where all he needed the listing agent for was to open the door & deliver the offer, this would have been ideal. Just remember that by doing this, you get ZERO representation from that agent. Again, for some transactions, some people don't want any.
Technically they did - your realtor represented you, as I understand it.
I understand Marc's perspective; at the same time, I think Bill Keegan is also correct. When purchasing, I went through a realtor at the same office, and I did it for a reason.
1) I had thoroughly researched, knew what the property was worth, and had enough information to know the seller's main interest (nothing was private; I actually talked to neighbors).
2) I knew that as long as the seller felt comfortable with my offer, that the agents portion of the job that I needed (presenting my offer, and opening the door for the inspection) would be covered just fine.
3) After my initial offer, I negotiated entirely through my lawyer, not my realtor.
As a result, the seller got rid of an inherited property, I picked up a deal and got some additional credits, and I had an honest (albeit a bit of a snake, all salesman need to be ) agent who - knowing I wasn't asking much of him as a Realtor - was happy to let me swing by and take measurements, etc. It worked out for all.
Not really cause I did sign that Dual thing in the agreement. Which I now no NEVER to da again..... LET ME ASK THIS !! This is my 6th home purchase..only one was for renting purposes..the last 3 I did move into and my realtors did not buy me anything as a house warming....My first three did, the one I bought as an investment the realtor even gave me a dinner gift certificate. Does this not happen anymore? My last realtor made out cause he sold my house then I also used him to buy this one....then again he did cut his fees maybe thats why??
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) agent who - knowing I wasn't asking much of him as a Realtor - was happy to let me swing by and take measurements, etc. It worked out for all.
