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Old 05-20-2009, 07:51 AM
 
1,552 posts, read 4,632,408 times
Reputation: 509

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfwnj View Post
It's great to imagine some magical world where everything is privatized and your taxes go down, but that ignores the social realities of the state. You aren't paying taxes for services. You are paying taxes in order to placate the masses and prevent the creation of an impoverished, destitute and angry underclass with nothing better to do than storm the Bastille. Ransom, basically. But you can pay with money or pay with riots, and riots are probably worse for your house than a high tax bill ever will be.
Another great post. So refreshing to hear someone cut to the chase.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:38 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,177 posts, read 5,055,122 times
Reputation: 4228
what we need is managed capitalism... fair rules...

we as a country are great only because of the "rules" imposed by our system of government. it allows fair competition in many respects. it is the fairness of the competition that actually inspires better competition.

you watch a baseball game, football, whatever... you see the competition on the field, you see the cream rise to the top, however... it is managed... it has rules.

rules of the game do not stop people from excelling... it just allows the game to go on more fairly AND more competitively. games without rules allow the cheaters and the sneaks to rig the game and take away the true competitive spirit.

that's what the repugnicans have done over the last 20 or so years -- take out the rules, take out the regulations... yes, you can argue there were dem's in there too, but by and large this has been the mantra of the GOP.

we will get back on track now with Obama.

did you see the classic last nite with John Stewart ? he nailed it interviewing Newt.

"question : why is it you republicans have TOTAL trust that the government can run the military (and without talking about oversight, waste, or need to curb spending) yet you say the government can't do anything else right ?"
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:49 AM
 
Location: NJ
31,771 posts, read 40,669,041 times
Reputation: 24590
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG183 View Post
what we need is managed capitalism... fair rules...

we as a country are great only because of the "rules" imposed by our system of government. it allows fair competition in many respects. it is the fairness of the competition that actually inspires better competition.

you watch a baseball game, football, whatever... you see the competition on the field, you see the cream rise to the top, however... it is managed... it has rules.

rules of the game do not stop people from excelling... it just allows the game to go on more fairly AND more competitively. games without rules allow the cheaters and the sneaks to rig the game and take away the true competitive spirit.

that's what the repugnicans have done over the last 20 or so years -- take out the rules, take out the regulations... yes, you can argue there were dem's in there too, but by and large this has been the mantra of the GOP.

we will get back on track now with Obama.

did you see the classic last nite with John Stewart ? he nailed it interviewing Newt.

"question : why is it you republicans have TOTAL trust that the government can run the military (and without talking about oversight, waste, or need to curb spending) yet you say the government can't do anything else right ?"
there are rules.

and john stewart's question is very stupid. however, those who are idealistically aligned with him will think its brilliant. since when do republicans have total trust that the government can run the military? im sure most republicans, like all democrats, believe that military is something that cant really be entrusted to the private sector.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:57 AM
 
505 posts, read 1,762,048 times
Reputation: 208
I agree with others in saying that the way New Jersey handles its services needs to be revisited.

While some services have engrained itself in the fabric of property values (schools) which would be very difficult to change, there is a whole cadre of other services that could either be removed, or combined with minimal impact.

Why does every town (in Morris at least) need its own library along with a county library?
Why does every town need its own fire/police/snow removal services?
Why does every town need its own court?

All of these things cost money and really provide no benefit. I think that by removing some and combining others would save a LOT of money. Why not create multi-towns that share police/fire, etc? It could save money without really reducing the effect on the citizens- in normal or emergency time.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:39 AM
 
744 posts, read 1,405,895 times
Reputation: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG183 View Post
what we need is managed capitalism... fair rules...

we as a country are great only because of the "rules" imposed by our system of government. it allows fair competition in many respects. it is the fairness of the competition that actually inspires better competition.

you watch a baseball game, football, whatever... you see the competition on the field, you see the cream rise to the top, however... it is managed... it has rules.

rules of the game do not stop people from excelling... it just allows the game to go on more fairly AND more competitively. games without rules allow the cheaters and the sneaks to rig the game and take away the true competitive spirit.

that's what the repugnicans have done over the last 20 or so years -- take out the rules, take out the regulations... yes, you can argue there were dem's in there too, but by and large this has been the mantra of the GOP.

we will get back on track now with Obama.

did you see the classic last nite with John Stewart ? he nailed it interviewing Newt.

"question : why is it you republicans have TOTAL trust that the government can run the military (and without talking about oversight, waste, or need to curb spending) yet you say the government can't do anything else right ?"
The country became great when there were far fewer rules and regulations. But also far less government interference.

You can have none or both, having just one of "rules and regulations" and "interference" is the problem.

With none you have pure capitalism. With extreme levels of both you have a government managed economy with five year plans and all that.

In fact you only need rules and regulations to make up for the interference, and to protect idiots from themselves (which I would argue isn't the role of government in the first place anyway).

Look at banking in the US:

The government interferes with FDIC insurance. This results in banks taking more risks than they would without it, since they will still get deposits as there's no incentive for depositors to care about the risk taking and put their deposits where they are safer (since FDIC will pay them back anyway). In fact depositors will seek out the banks which offer the highest interest rate, since the risk is zero no matter which FDIC insured bank they choose, so to get those deposits banks are forced to take riskier (and hence higher returning) actions so they can offer higher rates.

This is balanced by rules and regulations about what banks can and can't do. Reserves they must keep and so on.

So when Congress removed/watered down those rules and regulations a failure of the banking system became inevitable. But there's two sides to the coin. If the interferences were removed all would be well. So you can equally blame their existence as much as you can blame the lack of regulations.

The Federal Reserve interferes by setting interest rates at levels other than what the market would set them. In recent times they have been set far to low. This has the effect of mispricing risk in everything else. And the only way to get a reasonable return with investments now paying less returns than they should be is to use those low rates to leverage up and hence magnify the returns.

This is balanced by rules and regulations on how much leverage you can use. When those rules are reduced/ignored then you have inevitable asset bubbles as the increased leverage pushes up the price of the assets being invested in. This has disastrous effects on the entire economy since the prices mislead capitalists who then invest their capital incorrectly.

For example, house prices get bid up by the increased amounts of leverage meaning more money is chasing the same amount of houses. Builders and investors see that and the obvious response is to build lots to meet that demand. But the demand is an illusion based upon ridiculous amounts of leverage and at some point some event happens and whole house of cards collapses. See the dot-com crash for the same thing but with companies instead of houses.

This can be seen as a failure of regulation to stop the ridiculous leveraged investments. Or it can be seen as a failure of setting interests rates at ridiculous levels.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:41 AM
 
364 posts, read 826,263 times
Reputation: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG183 View Post
disagree.

when we get the rebates, people complain

when we don't get them, people complain
NJ increased the sale tax by 16% to pay for the rebate. Now rebate is gone, but tax remains. What is next to increase?
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:48 AM
 
3,219 posts, read 6,579,439 times
Reputation: 1852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
NJ increased the sale tax by 16% to pay for the rebate. Now rebate is gone, but tax remains. What is next to increase?
New taxes like a device that will be implanted in each resident which counts how many breaths of air one takes and the state will start charging for every breath we take in this state.

Heck, I don't put this past those Trenton political crooks.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:55 AM
 
Location: West Cobb County
82 posts, read 250,119 times
Reputation: 22
Kind of interesting... Fed and State raise taxes for years to accomodate budget increases and spending when economic times are great and properous. Yet, when the economy is in not so good shape they still raise them and take added tax breaks away.. Go figure there is only one way but up. As I see it, the greedy politicians that have been on the take for years need to take more for themselves to live.
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Home
1,482 posts, read 3,125,358 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG183 View Post
what we need is managed capitalism... fair rules...

we as a country are great only because of the "rules" imposed by our system of government. it allows fair competition in many respects. it is the fairness of the competition that actually inspires better competition.
A good analogy would be shock absorbers. A "true" free market puts steel wheels onto the road surface. You need some soet of regulation to give you tires and shocks, a sort of buffer and dampening system to prevent any damaging shocks you will experience when hitting those potholes in the road.

The other thing "Free" market does is place an unfair advantage in the hands of those that own the most. People may say that that is only fair, if you own it you should decide what is done with it. Until you start looking at how that cam be manipulated to mke it so noone else has a chance to own it but you and your family. When the people that have make the rules, a good majority is not going to be so magnanimous as to allow other people to take what they have.

Quote:
you watch a baseball game, football, whatever... you see the competition on the field, you see the cream rise to the top, however... it is managed... it has rules.
Sadly, this goes one step further. The team that spends the most money has won the most games and the most championships. The NY Yankees. he only one that comes close is the Red Socks, #2 on the spending chart.

What does that tell us? That although the feild itself may be even, the players on it are often determined by how much money you have to spend on them.

Quote:
rules of the game do not stop people from excelling... it just allows the game to go on more fairly AND more competitively. games without rules allow the cheaters and the sneaks to rig the game and take away the true competitive spirit.
The difficult thing is writing rules that are able to be applied unilaterally with little room for alternate interpretations and manipulation. Even the best rules have been used to leverage an advantage of one individual over another.

Quote:
that's what the repugnicans have done over the last 20 or so years -- take out the rules, take out the regulations... yes, you can argue there were dem's in there too, but by and large this has been the mantra of the GOP.
They did not take out all the rules, they just took away the limits. They took out the parking brake, the drag chute and removed any speed limits down the open road.

Unfortunately this "trust" we gave to corporate america was rewarded with unbridled investments in speculative "assets" and a general obfuscation of where any of these commodities were coming from and what they were comprised of. We basically had the equivalent of bacon-wrapped deep fried poo put on our plates and told it was something entirely different by the finanial ratings companies.

Sometimes it isn't even the absolute restrictions that are the main problems, but the buffering regulations that do not allow such rapid financial changes. Without those buffers things get crazy and we end up jumping the curbs that were only made for a more regulated environment.

Quote:
we will get back on track now with Obama.
I am not betting either way with that. I respect what he is doing, and trying, but h is just one branch of the government and he also needs to play by the rules of the game. He can't come in and wave a magic wand and make everything all right, and he steill has Reed, Pelosi and a whole host of other politicians (in all fairness, on both sides) grabbing for what they can get and complaining about things that make almost NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER in the overall budget.

What was the whole earmark thing on the bailout bill? If I remember right, even when you took all of them (and assumed all of them were bad) the % was still so small it would not ake any difference whatsoever if removed.

But that is what we got caught up on instead of just trying to hold companies like GM and AIG responsible for the monies we would be giveing them.

So back to Obama. I hope he can swing us over in the right direction, but I am not betting the farm on it.

Quote:
did you see the classic last nite with John Stewart ? he nailed it interviewing Newt.

"question : why is it you republicans have TOTAL trust that the government can run the military (and without talking about oversight, waste, or need to curb spending) yet you say the government can't do anything else right ?"
I did not see it (I am a week behind, since I watch recordings on my commute), but he is right.

We can't run ANYTHING, but it does not mean we still do not WANT to run some things. That's the key.
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Old 05-20-2009, 03:09 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
11,336 posts, read 16,691,416 times
Reputation: 13341
Anyone feel like bending over.

NJ has plenty of brooms to go around.
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