Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well that's why 72 hours after Sarah Palin gave that famous interview on TV, Mccain's poll numbers among College educated Republican voters dropped by 25 points. While his numbers among high school educated Republicans went up by 11 points.
Its a educational disconnect, that has & will continue to hurt the GOP.
The more Palin spoke out across the nation, blue collar republicans cheered wildly. While educated Republicans like myself cringed in disbelief.
There's a reason liberals bash our party and portray Joe the plumber as your typical republican. Its because it is becoming a large segment of our party. It turns off young people, educated people, and wealthy, successful voters.
What's very telling here is a study conducted by Fairleigh Dickinson Univ 4 years ago. It shows a clear disconnect in mentality towards education based on a Two part study.
NJ parents who attack our educational system & complain about teachers pay & teachers union are likely to:
1) 96% of these parents send their children to the Free NJ Public schools BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE
2) 89% of these parents do not hold a bachelors degree SO WHAT?
3) 82% of these parents plan to have their children attend a state university, a state college, or a community college if their children pursue college THERE IS STILL CHOICE IN THE PUBLIC COLLEGE SYSTEM. YOU CAN PICK WHICH COLLEGE YOU WANT TO ATTEND. NOT SO ON THE ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY LEVEL.
4) 91% of them have never considered sending their children to private or acatholic schools MAYBE THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT
5) 89% of these parents live in suburban or rural NJ SO WHAT
6) Politically: 69% of parents who think Teachers are getting paid too much are self indentified Republicans. 19% self Indentified as Independents, 7% Democrats NOT SURPRISING
Now what's the flipside:
1) NJ Parents who send their children to private school were asked about paying for schooling:
92% said that money was an issue but they were willing to invest in their child's education
2) 77% plan to definitely send their children to a Private College/University
19% plan to send them to a State College/University
3) 28% of the private school respondents have NJ household incomes of $80K or below. But they still are willing to pay for private schooling
4) 17% of the respondents for the private school study live in an urban area.
So many issues here. First up, who did this FDU study? I wrote a response in your quote above (in caps, sorry about that, just to make it look different, I'm not screaming)
I believe that we don't need to send all of NJs instruction dollars into the hands of NJEA members to have quality schools. In fact, I think if we broke it up, quality would go UP.
How does that make me a person who does not value education? I do value education, I value it so much that I believe that parents should have choice about where they send their children to school. I also believe this can be done within a system of public and private schools. It's not all or nothing.
The problem here is many people succumb into the trap of " LOOKING AT THE WORLD from a viewpoint that EVERYTHING is & has to be Republican vs. Democrat, Conservative vs. Liberal, Right vs. Left. Its a false and very misleading way to keep viewing the real world.
I think both parties suck. I can think for myself.
I'm not a Republican because I think the NJEA monopoly should be broken up.
(In fact I'm not a Republican or a Democrat, I'm an Independent).
First, i am not implying that All republicans or that all democrats are for or against teachers pay.
I'm an accountant, also a fin'l planner. I go with numbers in my profession rather than emotion, feel or intution. as they say, numbers don't lie.
What I'm saying is regardless of what you or I think, polling after polling show that the vast majority of people who complain about Teacher's salary in NJ come from people who identify themselves as republican. If you're an indie, then good for you. that's not the point. Common sense tells us that there are also indies and dems who complain about it. What Im talking about is the overwhelming number of the attacks come from reps.
Two, have you heard of the saying- "If it ain't broke, why fix it". There are literally 40 to 45 states in this great nation year after year whose public school system perfoms less superior than our state of NJ. Again, its not my opinion nor does it matter what you think- Its based on actual #'s, yearly #'s that are tracked by multiple indie companies who are answerable to the federal gov't.
So who in town gave you the idea that we should scrap, shut down the NJEA. The same NJEA that 47 states today have their own state version of NJEA. Geez, if NJ was ranked # 11 or # 18, I would even have 2nd thoughts of bashing them. But lord, we have been consistently in the top 5!
Improve yes! Streamline yes! But for some misguided people who listen to Non-Educator politicians, its lets destroy NJEA, lets cut pay of teachers, lets attack their retirement, etc etc.
To people who think that, I say to you- Leave New Jersey. Go to the #1,#2, # 3 top ranked states like Massachusetts or New Hampshere or maybe New York. There's only one problem ??
All of these top school systems in the country have their state version of NJEA
Of you go & move to states ranked in the 40, 45 state ranking. States with LOW TAXES, LOW Teachers Pay, States with much lower % of Phd's. . Places like Nevada or Arizona.
Do you understand the point here Luckyshoes.
No one is accusing you of not caring or being less committed to education.
What is being pointed out to you is a very misguided way of thinking that is perpetuated by a segment of politicians who have their own agenda.
In all my years, I yet to meet ONE SUCCESSFUL PARENT as a client, Not a one who would say that Teachers of NJ are overpaid.
Let me ask you. If Teachers union across NJ all declared tomorrow that they would be registered republicans & would support the Republican party- Do you realize how Quickly, how rapidly this Teacher bashing would STOP among these GOP politicians?
The more Palin spoke out across the nation, blue collar republicans cheered wildly. While educated Republicans like myself cringed in disbelief.
Count me (have college degree, currently in a grad program) amongst those who cringed. If Obama wasn't a left-wing lunatic wolf in sheep's clothing, I may have voted Democrat. I don't want Palin anywhere NEAR the 2012 election.
Hey, We came up from the south to some of the "best" public schools. I have to tell you I am not seeing it. Not even close.
No kidding. We spend the most in the nation per student and rank 39th in SAT scores. Somebody is pounding money down a rat hole with little to show for it.
In all my years, I yet to meet ONE SUCCESSFUL PARENT as a client, Not a one who would say that Teachers of NJ are overpaid.
Let me ask you. If Teachers union across NJ all declared tomorrow that they would be registered republicans & would support the Republican party- Do you realize how Quickly, how rapidly this Teacher bashing would STOP among these GOP politicians?
Its all about money & politics. Good luck to you
Yes, it is all about money and politics. The Democrats make sure that all of the instruction money in NJ goes to NJEA members. It's a monopoly, plain and simple. That's why the unions support the Dems.
I should clarify again, I don't blame the union and I definitely don't blame individual teachers. The union is doing what unions should do, fight for the best interest of their members. They are a super powerful union doing a great job for their members. But let us not confuse this with what is best for families and the taxpayers of this state. What I am really objecting to is how the politicians of this state are in cahoots with them.
I don't have an issue with teachers' pay. I have an issue with the pension system and the benefits, but that goes for all gov't workers in this state, not just the teachers. There are other issues too, like too many administrators, etc.
However, I do have a big problem with tenure and the lack of merit pay. Teachers should be evaluated, given pay raises according to merit and fired if needed, just like the rest of us.
Do you really believe that if we got rid of the monopoly our children would be the worse for it? Do you believe parents can't choose the right school for their children?
Don't take this the wrong way, but I suspect that you have a family member who is a member of the NJEA. I can't believe you would be such a vocal defender otherwise.
Luckyshoe
First, i am not implying that All republicans or that all democrats are for or against teachers pay.
I'm an accountant, also a fin'l planner. I go with numbers in my profession rather than emotion, feel or intution. as they say, numbers don't lie.
Then no doubt you have some understanding of economics. Do you understand and are you familiar with the concept of rent seeking ? This is essentially extortion performed by a privileged gatekeeper of a critical resource. The idea is that instead of producing, you use your gatekeeper status to extort funds. When the unions can pick the taxpayer's pocket with impunity, that's an example of this.
The impact is obviously devastating on the personal balance sheets of those who have to pay for it.
Quote:
What I'm saying is regardless of what you or I think, polling after polling show that the vast majority of people who complain about Teacher's salary in NJ come from people who identify themselves as republican.
I don't understand how this is relevant to anything. It's true that most democrats support more government and also support trade unions, while most republicans support private enterprise.
Also, the salary isn't really the issue. The issues are the lack of choice available to all actors involved (parents, and schools who can't fire incompetent teachers) and a benefits system that is designed to pick the pockets of future generations.
Quote:
Two, have you heard of the saying- "If it ain't broke, why fix it". There are literally 40 to 45 states in this great nation year after year whose public school system perfoms less superior than our state of NJ. Again, its not my opinion nor does it matter what you think- Its based on actual #'s, yearly #'s that are tracked by multiple indie companies who are answerable to the federal gov't.
What's broke is that property taxes are so high that it is becoming prohibitively expensive to live in a "good" school district. So many people are stuck in substandard schools.
High "average" rates don't tell the whole story. If you live in one of those "bad" school districts, you're stuck there.
Quote:
Improve yes! Streamline yes! But for some misguided people who listen to Non-Educator politicians, its lets destroy NJEA, lets cut pay of teachers, lets attack their retirement, etc etc.
It's not necessary to "destory" the NJEA, they just shouldn't be running our education policy.
Their retirement shouldn't be "attacked", they should have the same kind of retirement package available to everyone else.
In fact, as long as the government are honest enough to pay for their benefits up front, they can have whatever retirement they like.
What is irresponsible policy is when the politicians claim that they can turn 5% of their salary going in, to 50% of their salary going out.
Quote:
To people who think that, I say to you- Leave New Jersey. Go to the #1,#2, # 3 top ranked states like Massachusetts or New Hampshere or maybe New York. There's only one problem ??
How are NH's property taxes compared to ours ?
Quote:
What is being pointed out to you is a very misguided way of thinking that is perpetuated by a segment of politicians who have their own agenda.
As I understand it, you are saying that because she has the same opinion as those big bad republicans, she's wrong. But even if you think those big bad reps are wrong most of the time, maybe they're right this time. A stopped clock is right twice a day, as the saying goes.
Quote:
In all my years, I yet to meet ONE SUCCESSFUL PARENT as a client, Not a one who would say that Teachers of NJ are overpaid.
Most educated people have a better understanding of nuance to make such a simplistic claim. Entry level physics and math teachers are almost certainly underpaid. Long serving underwater basketweaving teachers are almost certanily overpaid.
The problem isn't that compensation is too much or too little. The problem is that the compensation system is quite deliberately (per the wishes of the unions) divorced from merit or any market discipline.
What's very telling here is a study conducted by Fairleigh Dickinson Univ 4 years ago. It shows a clear disconnect in mentality towards education based on a Two part study.
NJ parents who attack our educational system & complain about teachers pay & teachers union are likely to:
Depending on how the question is framed, the question may well boil down to asking how committed the respondent is to education.
But that's not what is being discussed in this thread. We are not making blanket statements that teachers are "overpaid". The problem with the system is a combination of a lack of merit-related pay, a lack of choice for parents, and dishonest accounting in the pension system.
Quote:
Parents who are paying taxes, but also come up with money to send their kids to non-public schools are not complaining.
I didn't see where it was apparent that these people "weren't complaining". It's true that most of the complainers send their kids to state school, it's also true that most of the general population do the same. Also, without seeing the study, who knows what "weren't complaining" means ?
I can assure you that the parents of any child whose Catholic school ended up closing the doors due to the "crowding out" effect are "complaining", though the complaint might not be specifically about teachers being overpaid.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
inconsistent definition of student proficiency
