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We also get paid better generally than in other states and we also get a lot for our money for those who want to take advantage.
Yes, but our income has not grown in proportion with housing prices. Housing prices doubled since 2000 whereas incomes have gone up by 20% or so. Property taxes have increased perhaps not by a factor of 2, but by more than the 20% increase in incomes.
All of this means that those who didn't buy before the housing market went crazy are not able to "take advantage", at least not if they want to raise a family.
A single person still has many great options (one can get a cheap shared rental) but it doesn't look like such a great place to raise a family any more.
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If a person doesn't need or want every luxury a Lexus provides, the person would be overspending in buying the Lexus. Doesn't mean a Lexus is "overpriced" or bad in any way, it is what it is - an expensive car with lots of benefits. That person should check out a Toyota, a car with fewer benefits (which the customer doesn't want anyway) at a lower price. Same idea.
Sure, I agree. Like owning a Lexus, raising a family in NJ is turning into something that is only a feasible option for a small elite. Everyone else is going to be either house-poor (and hence less able to spend money on all the wonderful things NJ offers) or urban-poor (owning a Lexus and living in the ghetto)
One thing that very high real estate prices do is tilt the playing field against families. For example, in Manhattan, where every square foot costs good money, you can't have anyone occupying that valuable space unless either they're coughing up a lot of money or someone else is doing the same on their behalf. Perhaps this is why nearly everyone I know who lives in Manhattan is single (and most of the exceptions are investment bankers!) Manhattan is a great place to live too, but it's only a decent place to raise a family for the very small elite who can afford family sized space at $1000/square foot.
Last edited by elflord1973; 12-17-2009 at 07:05 AM..
The higher cost of a place reflects basic supply and demand. NJ may not be best for every person. The high cost of housing in NJ, however, makes it clear that NJ is considered to be well worth the high cost by the open market.
The market for housing has not been terribly "open" in the last several years. Washington has manipulated both the supply (foreclosure prevention, downward pressure on rates to provide easy financing opportunity) and the demand side (in addition to cheap money, they literally pay you to buy a house now !)
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There's no getting around that fact. People want to use NJ's high costs to indict NJ as being a "bad" or "worse" place to live compared to other places, but in fact NJ's high cost is an indication that NJ is considered by most to be better than most other places.
The market measure just indicates "better" in a very broad sense, but not "better" for who or what. My feeling is that it is probably "better" for people who bought before 2000, quite good for single people, but not nearly as much "better" for young families.
Also, those high prices don't indicate a large amount of demand, they primarily indicate a lack of willingness or ability of existing owners to sell. Sales have been dismal for the last year or so (last I checked, most desirable Essex County towns were down 80% or more year on year)
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It's like any other product/cost relationship in our market economy; the higher the demand and the shorter the supply, the higher the price. Basic economics.
Except that the "basic economics" here have been manipulated.
I very honestly don't understand why it takes a person that long to move out of NJ, unless he or she recently made the decision after living here for years or decades, in which case it's a dubious claim that NJ somehow went bad overnight.
I'm curious as to what is out there that is all-around "better" than NJ. I'm sure there are places that certain people may like more based on a particular preference. For example, I would love Southern California because it offers much of what I have here in NJ but also offers a perfect climate for me. But even in that case there are tradeoffs. Where is it that you find to be so muc better than NJ, just out of curiosity?
Because we own homes that we have to sell first, Mod cut
Last edited by Viralmd; 12-17-2009 at 07:24 AM..
Reason: Not necessary.
Yes, but our income has not grown in proportion with housing prices. Housing prices doubled since 2000 whereas incomes have gone up by 20% or so. Property taxes have increased perhaps not by a factor of 2, but by more than the 20% increase in incomes.
All of this means that those who didn't buy before the housing market went crazy are not able to "take advantage", at least not if they want to raise a family.
A single person still has many great options (one can get a cheap shared rental) but it doesn't look like such a great place to raise a family any more.
Sure, I agree. Like owning a Lexus, raising a family in NJ is turning into something that is only a feasible option for a small elite. Everyone else is going to be either house-poor (and hence less able to spend money on all the wonderful things NJ offers) or urban-poor (owning a Lexus and living in the ghetto)
One thing that very high real estate prices do is tilt the playing field against families. For example, in Manhattan, where every square foot costs good money, you can't have anyone occupying that valuable space unless either they're coughing up a lot of money or someone else is doing the same on their behalf. Perhaps this is why nearly everyone I know who lives in Manhattan is single (and most of the exceptions are investment bankers!) Manhattan is a great place to live too, but it's only a decent place to raise a family for the very small elite who can afford family sized space at $1000/square foot.
It's not that living in NJ is for a "small elite". Same thing with driving a Lexus - it's not for a "small elite" either. It's about what a person wants and what they are willing to spend for it. There are millions of people who, on a very average income, choose to live in NJ and are able to pay for it, just as millions on a very average income choose to buy Lexuses (or Cadillacs, BMW's, etc.) and are able to pay for it. Many middle class people both own Lexuses and nice homes in NJ.
It depends on the lifestyle the person wants. Many people that I know who love living in NJ own nice "luxury" cars and live in modest homes in nice, middle-class towns that might be a little crowded compared to many towns in the USA. That's the life they enjoy - no huge yard to work on, a nice car to get around in, plenty of shops and services, mass transit, services, etc.
NJ is trending to a more European-like lifestyle where things cost more but people start to make do with less because they find they're better off sacrificing a lot of the sprawl in exchange for other benefits.
I just don't see where your implication that NJ is becoming some kind of overgrown Palm Springs, a playground for some wealthy, "small elite" has any truth to it whatsoever. I think it just looks that way to people who value things differently, like people who value a home for its size and newness than for its location and the community's benefits.
The market for housing has not been terribly "open" in the last several years. Washington has manipulated both the supply (foreclosure prevention, downward pressure on rates to provide easy financing opportunity) and the demand side (in addition to cheap money, they literally pay you to buy a house now !)
This really doesn't change the bottom line that housing in NJ costs more and people are paying and supporting those prices in order to live here, by choice, over other places.
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Originally Posted by elflord1973
The market measure just indicates "better" in a very broad sense, but not "better" for who or what. My feeling is that it is probably "better" for people who bought before 2000, quite good for single people, but not nearly as much "better" for young families.
The market measure doesn't indicate anything, it rather is a reflection of what people indicate, by choosing with their $$$, what they consider "better" than someplace else. You're entitled to your opinion that it's not "better" for young families, but I know plenty of young families that pay the price to stay because they love it. I know other young families that are even moving back from places like Florida, ponying up the extra money, just to be back.
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Originally Posted by elflord1973
Also, those high prices don't indicate a large amount of demand, they primarily indicate a lack of willingness or ability of existing owners to sell. Sales have been dismal for the last year or so (last I checked, most desirable Essex County towns were down 80% or more year on year)
You can buy a house in Las Vegas for a song now because even at a couple hundred thousand people don't want it, and they just keep dropping the prices. In NJ, you don't see that. You see homes comparable to a $200,000 Vegas home going for well over $500,000.
You just can't get around the fact that people are choosing to pay more money for housing in NJ. If NJ weren't worth it to them, they would choose to not pay, and sellers would be forced to drop prices until buyers bought.
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Originally Posted by elflord1973
Except that the "basic economics" here have been manipulated.
I don't see how. It's very simple and basic. A home in NJ will cost $100,000+ more than its equivalent in Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. (even on bigger property), and people are buying at those prices because they feel it's worth it. That's basic economics, and there's no manipulation. If people don't think it's worth it, they won't pay.
I get the feeling that you (and some others in this NJ forum) believe since you don't think it's worth paying more to live in NJ then most other people must also not think it's not worth paying more. The reality is that a lot of people out there don't agree with that and the money they spend proves it.
Many middle class people both own Lexuses and nice homes in NJ.
But that's the thing -- a middle class incomes simply aren't good enough to buy a nice home in a nice neighborhood any more (unless you mean a nice condo or townhouse). Most of these "middle class" people you refer to are probably either house poor or they got in before prices exploded.
Nice houses in the good neighborhoods cost well over 400k, so you'd better be earning 100k or more (though 150k+ is better ... ) if you want a fair shot at a middle class lifestyle.
This "European" lifestyle, as you put it, where no-one can afford more than a few hundred square feet works better for single people than it does for families. NJ and the "European" lifestyle worked just fine for me when I was single and had very modest space requirements. Now that I have a family, it doesn't work nearly as well -- I could really use the extra space. That's why I'm looking into a relocation (to PA) right now. A ~400k budget doesn't go very far here, especially if you want to be in a town that doesn't have outrageous property taxes.
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I don't see how. It's very simple and basic. A home in NJ will cost $100,000+ more than its equivalent in Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. (even on bigger property), and people are buying at those prices because they feel it's worth it. That's basic economics, and there's no manipulation.
Those prices reflect the Wall Street boom, which again turned out to be a bubble. What has happened in the bust is that sellers are refusing to lower their prices, so sales slow to a trickle. This is what has happened in NJ -- the prices do not indicate a high demand, they indicate a lack of supply (in the sense of a shortage of genuine sellers who are willing to meet the market). And part of the cause of that lack of supply is manipulation of a number of important macroeconomic factors. Of course these manipulations also affect prices everywhere else, but the effect on the NY metro area is more pronounced because of the impact of Wall St money.
The reduction in supply means that the desirable portion of the inventory is indeed only available to a few "elite" buyers.
Disgruntled Jerseyites are sure a feisty bunch.
If life didn't turn out for you the way you had anticipated in the Garden State, just tuck your tails & head for cheaper pastures.
Simple as that. No need for all of the whining.
If that was directed at me, it's based on a false premise. I'm not "disgruntled". I've enjoyed my time in NJ, but I'm starting to feel that it's a good time to move on.
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If life didn't turn out for you the way you had anticipated in the Garden State,
It "turned out" just fine. I enjoyed my time at Rutgers (much more than I did my time at some other school in some Southern state). I met my wife in Manhattan. I liked my job. But this isn't the best place to raise a family, so it's time to move on.
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Simple as that. No need for all of the whining.
Again, I notice a kind of knee-jerk attack on anyone who dares point out some of the disadvantages of living in NJ. There is no "whining". I'm not even claiming that there's anything terribly "bad" about NJ. I'm simply pointing out that I and perhaps many others have better opportunities elsewhere.
Last edited by knoxgarden; 12-18-2009 at 09:39 PM..
Reason: personal attack
Disgruntled Jerseyites are sure a feisty bunch.
If life didn't turn out for you the way you had anticipated in the Garden State, just tuck your tails & head for cheaper pastures.
Simple as that. No need for all of the whining.
The "whining" is a reaction to listening to all those who seem to live in New Jersey with their heads constantly buried in the sand all the while extolling the virtues of living in New Jersey......bottom line is that all the "whiners" on here get tired of hearing "its not so bad" when in fact the cost of living in New Jersey in some facets is the worst of all 50 states.....how is that "not so bad" and exactly how bad does it have to get before your allowed to "whine" ??? You make it sound like the only choices available are to leave or whine.....whats wrong with speaking your mind......Only a fool sits in silence when they are being s**t on.
As far as leaving goes your position is that its better to be overtaxed and live in silence than it is to move to a location where you can provide a better lifestyle for your family ??? How does that make any sense ???
Last edited by FlyersFan; 12-17-2009 at 09:46 PM..
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