Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
have you heard of maslow's hierarchy of needs? a lot of children in newark/camden don't even have the basic needs, they are from broken homes. god himself wouldn't be able to get higher tests scores from kids who don't know where their next meal is coming from, or if they are going to come home to find a needle stuck in mommy's arm. it's not as easy as you think, and standardized tests are NOT an indication of quality education.
how about teachers of special needs children? how do you rank them?
would YOU take a teacher's job in Newark knowing you were rated on your kids improving on tests. I sure as hell wouldn't.
I sure would, if I knew I could make signicantly more teaching in Newark than in Milburn if I could show improvement in test scores.
Who said it was easy? If it were we could keep providing mediocre teachers for these kids. It isn't easy and that is why merit pay is required.I don't believe these kids are any less bright than the kids in Milburn. Of course they have hurdles kids in Milburn don't but it doesn't make them hopeless and incapable of improving.
If SN were in a seperate class that class would be eveluated the same as any other class. If they were incorporated into regular classes then as long as the proportion was the same/similar year after year that class would be treated the same as any other class.
Why is hope and change good every where except with education? The NJEA believes in hopelessness and status quo.
I sure would. If I knew I could make signicantly more teaching in Newark than in Milburn if I could show improvement in test scores.
Who said it was easy? If it were we could keep providing mediocre teachers for these kids. It isn't easy and that is why merit pay is required.I don't believe these kids are any less bright than the kids in Milburn. Of course they have hurdles kids in Milburn don't but it doesn't make them hopeless and incapable of improving.
If Sn were in a sperate class that class would be eveluated the same as any other class. If they were incorporated into regular classes then as long as the proportion was the same/similar year after year that class would be treated the same as any other class.
Why is hope and change good every where except with education? The NJEA believes in hopelessness and status quo.
The NJEA's foremost responsibility is to their rank and file, and that interest revolves around preserving and raising salaries plus benefits. The children aren't really on the radar screen. Well, not entirely true. They are on the radar screen with individual teachers who give a damn about their profession. However, the operators of that organization are only interested in preservation of jobs and security for their constituency.
The NJEA's foremost responsibility is to their rank and file, and that interest revolves around preserving and raising salaries plus benefits. The children aren't really on the radar screen. Well, not entirely true. They are on the radar screen with individual teachers who give a damn about their profession. However, the operators of that organization are only interested in preservation of jobs and security for their constituency.
That is exactly right and there is nothing wrong with that. But everyone needs to realize that the interests of the children and the unions are not aligned.
Well we shall see what happens...Gov elect took a huge leap here against NJEA.....that is a powerful if not the most powerful union in NJ today..now that he has cast his die voters are going to expect results or as another poster said come election time he will be in the same boat as Jon
and as an after thought..it really isn't the rank & file teachers..it's the administrations and the union. What they ( the teachers) take is theirs to take legitimately
ok. make the tests easier to show improvement. where's my raise?
The notion that you can't appraise performance is largely pushed by those who don't want it appraised. If they can (they can and do) evaluate performance in almost every other line of work, why not teachers ?
A heavy handed one size fits all approach imposed by the state may not be a very good approach, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to tell a good from a bad teacher.
I do agree partly with your comments -- measuring outputs without comparing with a proper baseline in itself is silly (though people do it all the time).
The notion that you can't appraise performance is largely pushed by those who don't want it appraised. If they can (they can and do) evaluate performance in almost every other line of work, why not teachers ?
A heavy handed one size fits all approach imposed by the state may not be a very good approach, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to tell a good from a bad teacher.
I do agree partly with your comments -- measuring outputs without comparing with a proper baseline in itself is silly (though people do it all the time).
i never said i didn't agree with it, my concern is that little thing called implementation. no system is perfect. i've been in corporate america over 20 years being rated on the merit system, and believe me, people are kidding themselves if they think performance is the main factor in salary increase! i think it's harder to implement a merit based system when you're not starting with a level playing field.
i never said i didn't agree with it, my concern is that little thing called implementation. no system is perfect. i've been in corporate america over 20 years being rated on the merit system, and believe me, people are kidding themselves if they think performance is the main factor in salary increase! i think it's harder to implement a merit based system when you're not starting with a level playing field.
just call me the devil's advocate.
Sometimes you have to tear the bandaid off, even though painful, to start the healing that will follow.
Will it be an easy transition? No...
Will it be a smooth transition? No...
Will there be mistakes made in the transition? Yes...
Will we need to tweak things as we go? Yes...
But here's the important one...
Will we be better in the end because of it? Yes...
i never said i didn't agree with it, my concern is that little thing called implementation. no system is perfect. i've been in corporate america over 20 years being rated on the merit system, and believe me, people are kidding themselves if they think performance is the main factor in salary increase! i think it's harder to implement a merit based system when you're not starting with a level playing field.
just call me the devil's advocate.
The main difference is that if the companies compensation structure is inefficient, they go out of business. If the government's compensation structure is inefficient, they take more money from the tax payer. (put it another way, the diff between govt and business is that govt doesn't go out of business)
I sure would, if I knew I could make signicantly more teaching in Newark than in Milburn if I could show improvement in test scores.
Who said it was easy? If it were we could keep providing mediocre teachers for these kids. It isn't easy and that is why merit pay is required.I don't believe these kids are any less bright than the kids in Milburn. Of course they have hurdles kids in Milburn don't but it doesn't make them hopeless and incapable of improving.
If SN were in a seperate class that class would be eveluated the same as any other class. If they were incorporated into regular classes then as long as the proportion was the same/similar year after year that class would be treated the same as any other class.
Why is hope and change good every where except with education? The NJEA believes in hopelessness and status quo.
you seem to think I don't agree with merit pay. i never said any such thing.
i think you're making this seem way too easy. no amount of teaching can overcome a crappy home life (which is a whole other discussion in and of itself) and I think it's simplistic to say standardized test scores should be the benchmark across the board. i don't believe scores on a test mean anything - all it does it drive behavior to teach to the test.
what about children in lower grades who do not take standardized tests? how do those teachers get evaluated?
why is hope and change NOT good except for education?
The main difference is that if the companies compensation structure is inefficient, they go out of business. If the government's compensation structure is inefficient, they take more money from the tax payer. (put it another way, the diff between govt and business is that govt doesn't go out of business)
Worse than that under the current system bad teachers are rewarded equally with good teachers. There is no incentive for excellence and we short change the kids.
Is a merit system flawless? Of course not but we cannot continue down the road we are on.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
