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What Jersey bashing argument? I am blowing a hole in your silly market based argument as to why Jersey is so great. There are many great things about Jersey and many not so great thing. The fact is many people are "trapped" here by various circumstances. I venture to guess that given the choice of living in Hawaii or NJ all things being equal (job, family friends etc.) a hell of a lot of people would move to Hawaii. I love NJ but I would move to Hawaii in a heart beat if my family, job and friends were there. Doesn't make my ardor for Jersey false.
Of course they'd prefer Hawaii - look how expensive it is to live there. The market drives the prices.
Who is "trapped"???? Nobody is trapped. People may say they are trapped even if that's not the case. Every day, even in this sluggish national housing market, hundreds and thousands of people move. They move away from friends and family. They lose money on homes; some of them are foreclosed on. They move for a better situation elsewhere.
I am still trying to understand how someone can be "trapped", as you insist is the case. The only such situation I can think of is that they would be trapped by a severe health problem, and that is far from a majority of people.
No, people aren't "trapped." You aren't "trapped" because you want to be near your extended family. You aren't "trapped" because you want to be near friends. You aren't "trapped" by your job, unless your job is illegally locking you up like a slave and physically keeping you from moving. So how are people "trapped"???
If the taxes were killing anyone, that person would go elsewhere. It's really just that simple. It may be hard to leave family, friends, jobs, etc; it may take time to find a new job, a new home. But, nobody is "trapped". That's a weak excuse.
Of course they'd prefer Hawaii - look how expensive it is to live there. The market drives the prices.
Who is "trapped"???? Nobody is trapped. People may say they are trapped even if that's not the case. Every day, even in this sluggish national housing market, hundreds and thousands of people move. They move away from friends and family. They lose money on homes; some of them are foreclosed on. They move for a better situation elsewhere.
I am still trying to understand how someone can be "trapped", as you insist is the case. The only such situation I can think of is that they would be trapped by a severe health problem, and that is far from a majority of people.
No, people aren't "trapped." You aren't "trapped" because you want to be near your extended family. You aren't "trapped" because you want to be near friends. You aren't "trapped" by your job, unless your job is illegally locking you up like a slave and physically keeping you from moving. So how are people "trapped"???
If the taxes were killing anyone, that person would go elsewhere. It's really just that simple. It may be hard to leave family, friends, jobs, etc; it may take time to find a new job, a new home. But, nobody is "trapped". That's a weak excuse.
This is becoming a circular argument. Lets summarize and finish up. You believe people are perfectly liquid that they will flow to where life is most acceptable. You believe there are no barriers that prevent people from pulling up stakes and move from state to state. You also believe NJ has the highest per capita salaries and all NJ's fiscal problems are due to Christie Whitman.
I believe there are many reasons why people will not leave a given place due to a myriad of factors even though they may be unhappy with where they live. I have proven the Dems doubled the debt in 8 years and Ct. actually has the highest per capita income in the country.
Let's leave it to the readers to decide who's argument is based in reality and who's is not.
This is becoming a circular argument. Lets summarize and finish up. You believe people are perfectly liquid that they will flow to where life is most acceptable.
I believe that people make choices based on factors and that they are not bound to any one place. Depending on how much weight each factor has they will or will not move. "Perfectly liquid"?? Yes, in the sense that no person is legally forced to remain in one place. Perfectly liquid by circumstances? Only as far as they CHOOSE to weigh each factor in their circumstances; that is all choice, as well.
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Originally Posted by shorebaby
You believe there are no barriers that prevent people from pulling up stakes and move from state to state.
I believe the "barriers" involved can be overcome and each person CHOOSES how much it is worth overcoming the barrier. Ultimately, the choice to stay or leave is the person's own choice, and any barriers not overcome are not overcome by the person's own choice, not by being "trapped".
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
You also believe NJ has the highest per capita salaries and all NJ's fiscal problems are due to Christie Whitman.
Yes - highest per capita salaries, if not second to CT - we're always up there, #1 or 2... Many of NJ's fiscal problems are a result of Whitman's irresponsible borrowing and dramatic inflation of the state's debt.
Whitman caused it all though. Imagine you have a credit card with a typically high credit card interest rate. For years, you don't use it. Then your wife runs up half the credit limit of the card. Now you are trying to pay it off, with interest, but you were just making ends meet before she ran up the debt, so now you're making the minimum payments. Problem is that your payments don't keep up with the interest, so the debt climbs. Add to that the fact that since you have been making the minimum payments, the money that you are using to do so is coming out of another expense, like the electric bill; then they cut off electric and you pay with that same credit card because you need the electricity just so you can sleep and wake up to an alarm so you can go work and make your pay to pay the bills.
Well, Whitman is like that wife who grabs the credit card and runs up more than half the credit limit on it and incurs debt with interest without her husband's knowledge. The Democrats since whitman are like the husband trying to manage the debt and then turning around and using the card in emergencies, emergencies that are brought on by the wife's having run up debt in the first place. So the problems with our state's DEBT are, at this point, MOSTLY Whitman's fault. She initiated the bulk of it. Doubling a debt doesn't say much since it multiplies on its own due to the interest.
In any case, it doesn't really matter; the debt isn't the source of our high taxes (yet, anyway) and it has no bearing on our property taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
I believe there are many reasons why people will not leave a given place due to a myriad of factors even though they may be unhappy with where they live.
Right, but you consider this being "trapped" as if the person has no choices available, whereas I correctly place the decision-making on the person who weighs each factor and barrier and makes a decision to leave or to stay. People are not forced to stay in a place, no matter how "trapped" they FEEL, they are never trapped, unless they are in jail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
I have proven the Dems doubled the debt in 8 years and Ct. actually has the highest per capita income in the country.
You didn't prove either of these things, and I never said NJ has the highest per capita income of all the states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
Let's leave it to the readers to decide who's argument is based in reality and who's is not.
That's fine, I'm just pointing out that anyone who claims people are "trapped" are fabricating that, because nobody is "trapped", not even by their own circumstances, unless they choose to "trap" themselves, which really is logically impossible.
Bottom line, again: NJ has a high price, people are willing to pay it, therefore it is worth the money to any and all who choose to pay it, no matter what their individual, respective reasons are for paying it.
It's worth the money to me (generally speaking) because I make enough to own a home on a small 1/2 acre or so, go out whenever I want, drive what I want, vacation when and where I want, invest for my family's future and give to church and charities and remain debt free (except for a mortgage).
If I couldn't do all of the above and more, I'd see no special benefit to living in NJ.
I do think we pay too much for our political corruption. Other states get their corruption cheaper, why can't we since we're so much more educated and sophisticated than they are?
When I decide to quick working for a living, we're outta here.
<LI roundtrip="0" lastVisited="3">Connecticut— $63,160 per capita [COLOR=#005497 !important][COLOR=#005497 !important]income[/color][/color] <LI roundtrip="0" lastVisited="3">Massachusetts— $56,661 per capita income <LI roundtrip="0" lastVisited="3">New Jersey— $56,116 per capita income <LI roundtrip="0" lastVisited="3">New York— $55,032 per capita income
Wyoming— $53, 163 per capita income
I said salaries, not per capita income...doesn't matter anyway. We have some of the highest salaries in the nation, which offset some of the highest taxes in the nation.
The point is that people stay here and pay, therefore NJ is "worth the money", as I said in the OP. Just by virtue of people paying it is proven that NJ is "worth the money".
I said salaries, not per capita income...doesn't matter anyway. We have some of the highest salaries in the nation, which offset some of the highest taxes in the nation.
The point is that people stay here and pay, therefore NJ is "worth the money", as I said in the OP. Just by virtue of people paying it is proven that NJ is "worth the money".
They are one and the same. If they are different I am sure you can produce some actual evidence? Like the craziness about the doubling of the debt in the last 8 years being Whitman's fault. Folks, you can't make this stuff up.
They are one and the same. If they are different I am sure you can produce some actual evidence? Like the craziness about the doubling of the debt in the last 8 years being Whitman's fault. Folks, you can't make this stuff up.
As I said, none of that even matters. People are paying the prices so it is worth it to those who choose to pay to live in NJ.
It's like the $4 hot dogs they sell at a Giants game. To those who decide to buy them, it is worth the money, which is why they choose to buy them. Enough people think it's worth the money and show it's worth the money by buying them that Giants Stadium continues to sell them at $4 each. It doesn't matter that the people who feel it's not worth it don't buy them; it is still worth the money to those who continue to buy them.
Likewise, those who choose to keep paying the price to live in NJ are continuing to show, with their spending, that living in NJ is worth the price they choose to pay.
By the way you do realize that what you consider filet mignon and chicken mcnuggets is really your opinion and is based on what you value and desire. Ofcourse, what you consider filet mignon someone else may consider dog doo doo and conversely what you consider chicken mcnuggets. Have you ever considered the real price of the filet mignon and not just in terms of $, but the toll it takes on families, marriages, children? To me it seems that in our misguided desire to have the filet mignon life that our families and the things that really matter and have real value are viewed as chopped liver. Its sad, but true that many Jerseyans sacrifice their own souls and their families at the altar of materialism and status. The state is a rat's race where most everyone who wants to live here has to either out of necessity or for their own selfish insatiable drive to have the biggest house, biggest tv and a Beamer or Mercedes, put their career before their family. Again it all comes down to each person's value system and what they consider to be "qualit o f life." All I can see are alot of stressed out and angry people on the roads of this state. By the way filet mignon is not the key to happiness. You can give a miserable person filet mignon and they will still be the same miserable person after having all the filet mignon they can fill their guts with. Its sad that people continue to equate happiness with things and the never ending pursuit of pleasure. This state has no soul and I'm getting out of here as soon as I can. Who's with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
I believe that people make choices based on factors and that they are not bound to any one place. Depending on how much weight each factor has they will or will not move. "Perfectly liquid"?? Yes, in the sense that no person is legally forced to remain in one place. Perfectly liquid by circumstances? Only as far as they CHOOSE to weigh each factor in their circumstances; that is all choice, as well.
I believe the "barriers" involved can be overcome and each person CHOOSES how much it is worth overcoming the barrier. Ultimately, the choice to stay or leave is the person's own choice, and any barriers not overcome are not overcome by the person's own choice, not by being "trapped".
Yes - highest per capita salaries, if not second to CT - we're always up there, #1 or 2... Many of NJ's fiscal problems are a result of Whitman's irresponsible borrowing and dramatic inflation of the state's debt.
Whitman caused it all though. Imagine you have a credit card with a typically high credit card interest rate. For years, you don't use it. Then your wife runs up half the credit limit of the card. Now you are trying to pay it off, with interest, but you were just making ends meet before she ran up the debt, so now you're making the minimum payments. Problem is that your payments don't keep up with the interest, so the debt climbs. Add to that the fact that since you have been making the minimum payments, the money that you are using to do so is coming out of another expense, like the electric bill; then they cut off electric and you pay with that same credit card because you need the electricity just so you can sleep and wake up to an alarm so you can go work and make your pay to pay the bills.
Well, Whitman is like that wife who grabs the credit card and runs up more than half the credit limit on it and incurs debt with interest without her husband's knowledge. The Democrats since whitman are like the husband trying to manage the debt and then turning around and using the card in emergencies, emergencies that are brought on by the wife's having run up debt in the first place. So the problems with our state's DEBT are, at this point, MOSTLY Whitman's fault. She initiated the bulk of it. Doubling a debt doesn't say much since it multiplies on its own due to the interest.
In any case, it doesn't really matter; the debt isn't the source of our high taxes (yet, anyway) and it has no bearing on our property taxes.
Right, but you consider this being "trapped" as if the person has no choices available, whereas I correctly place the decision-making on the person who weighs each factor and barrier and makes a decision to leave or to stay. People are not forced to stay in a place, no matter how "trapped" they FEEL, they are never trapped, unless they are in jail.
You didn't prove either of these things, and I never said NJ has the highest per capita income of all the states.
That's fine, I'm just pointing out that anyone who claims people are "trapped" are fabricating that, because nobody is "trapped", not even by their own circumstances, unless they choose to "trap" themselves, which really is logically impossible.
Bottom line, again: NJ has a high price, people are willing to pay it, therefore it is worth the money to any and all who choose to pay it, no matter what their individual, respective reasons are for paying it.
Fine, then it's a luxury good, if it makes you feel better to say so. Heck, I've been using the illustration that NJ is filet mignon (a luxury item) and comparing it to McNuggets (a very cheap item).
Perhaps you didn't follow my post ? Again, the fact that one item commands higher price than another doesn't mean that "a majority" or "more" people want the more expensive item. We know with some certainty that those who fork out the higher amount for the luxury good do indeed prefer that. But we don't know that each and every one of those who choose the McNuggets don't prefer the McNuggets. You might believe that it's a minority who prefer the McNuggets and you may be correct in that example. But if we replace the filet with some rather icky, esoteric delicacy, then the majority will prefer the McNuggets even the delicacy will still sell at a high price (though to a small customer base).
Quote:
I think you're making the mistake of assuming that because fewer people end up buying luxury items that they are less in demand; it's quite the opposite, really. Fewer people buy them because they are less in supply.
But that was exactly my point -- supply is limited, which is what pushes housing prices sky high. Sure, I'd live in an upscale town in a 600k house if I had 600k to spend on a house.
But for those who don't have infinite resources, it boils down to choosing something that offers value on a finite budget.
I'm just curious. Are you Italian? Because if you were Italian and had an Italian mother, you would understand what it would mean to be "trapped" in New Jersey!
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